suggestions

There are various reasons this needs to be changed, but I'll skip those and get into the formula.

Current formula: 2 * SQRT(defense) Proposed formula: {[2 * SQRT(defense)]/[2 * SQRT(defense + level)]} * 100

Makes the formula level dependent, prevents obtaining 100%, and doesn't drastically modify the current one. Will weaken Str bots through the middle ranks, as armor will now have less value.

Thoughts? Modifications?

Post a graph of both formula's and I'll give you my thoughts on it.

That's a little difficult with it being level based.

About as difficult as just straight up looking at a formula and giving one's thoughts on it.

I just did a quick excel sheet of this. It seems the absorb is always 85%+

Yes, I booboo'd that in my quick thinking. Should be:

{[2SQRT(def)]/[2SQRT(def+level)]}[2SQRT(def)]

On the final multiplier, could go def - level to create a greater impact.

{[2*SQRT(def)]/[2*SQRT(def+level)]}*[2SQRT(def)]

Fixed.

+1 for the nifty formula
+1 for what easy said; make a graph or table or something, to show what it does

Def        Level                 Old             New
242         10              31.1126983722   30.4891341561
271         33              32.9241552663   31.0858319395
645         55              50.7937003968   48.7574170182
388         80              39.3954312072   35.8706126892
892         85              59.7327380923   57.0752165831
1168        110             68.3520299625   65.3442550994
982         150             62.673758464    58.3738408909

All builds taken from Hints section, except level 10, which is just max attainable armor.

It might solve the problem but I'm not sure I like this solution. Maybe if there was (a lot) more armors implemented with higher armor on them this could work.

While the change isn't significant enough to make bring balance/dex bots up to par with str bots, it at least reduces the dominance of str bots with >80% absorb. Unfortunately, it seems to do very little to str bots at mid levels, so answerers for example will still easily beat other bots at level 80 or so.

So.... dex bots get even less defence? <.<

Yes, but str bots get even less relatively speaking, so it helps dex bots a little. Not a lot, but a little.

We should figure out the highest strength for dex bots below ~160. Then make the formula drop after that amount of strength.

So, strength bots over ~80, would get nerfed while dex bots would not?

Since this will decrease the absorb percentage of str bots by more than it will dex bots, it is an effective nerf on str bots, however a small one. Yes, dex bots will absorb even less than they do know, but the percentage less that str bots will absorb will be more significant. Changing a formula just for a certain level is a weak solution. This formula isn't perfect, nor did I claim it was, but I think it's a solid base to start with.

So basically, nerf everyone, make DEX bots a little weaker, and make STR bots a lot weaker?

I dislike this then. Buff DEX, don't nerf STR. Training is hard enough as it is without the extra hit. A nerf like this would hurt all trainers.

Since the issue here is the STR-DEX balance anyway, buffing DEX instead of nerfing STR should sit equally well with all concerned.

Actually, since you're nerfing the training bots too, you're hitting them a little harder. Since they are conned out, you're at the advantage here.

Actually, given the shitty equipment they use, and the fact that they rely on stats more than equipment, I think that would still hurt us more than them.

Less absorb on both sides would make for faster trains, but I'm not sure that would be enough to make up for it.

neps has the right of it here.

It wouldn't work like that... because a dex bot's damage range is significantly lower than a Str bots.. Str bots will get a damage buff.

What asmo said.

I was just giving level 80 as a reference. Looky here.

Level 80 Pain needles vs. Level 80 Answerers.
If absorb was nerfed post 200 strength, then pain needles would hit harder yet answerers would still push the same damage against pain needles.

Then Level 132 light sabers against 132 souls.
Souls hit stupidly hard, but now, they hit less giving light sabers more of a chance to beat souls.

See? :)

I'm fairly certain we were talking about how training bots would suddenly get a lot harder.

Training bots are irrelevant to the balancing of the game.

Considering it comprises 50% of what we can do with out bots, it is hardly irrelevant. Sorry if you don't give a shit about training, just ignore the posts that don't concern you.

Anyway, XP/hour is a concern, unlike fighting, where all that is required of you is simply to be stronger than your opponent. The point I'm making is that balancing doesn't have to involve nerfs. You don't have to nerf the strong party, just buff the weak one.

You want to make it so that it's easier for bots to train at the expense of further distancing the balance between str and dex bots :S

Forgive me for thinking you people are retarded.

You want to make it so that it's easier for bots to train at the expense of further distancing the balance between str and dex bots :S

Forgive me for thinking you people are retarded.

I don't know how much clearer I can get on this. As I was saying..

Considering it comprises 50% of what we can do with out bots, it is hardly irrelevant. Sorry if you don't give a shit about training, just ignore the posts that don't concern you.

Anyway, XP/hour is a concern, unlike fighting, where all that is required of you is simply to be stronger than your opponent. The point I'm making is that balancing doesn't have to involve nerfs. You don't have to nerf the strong party, just buff the weak one.

I'd make the font bigger if I could, but that's the best I could do, sorry if it still sails way over your head kiddo.

Nerfing everyone is hardly a nerf... Training bots can easily be adjusted if that is your primary concern. As was brought to light, balance has to be focused on the bots that fight one another, with the training bots adapting to the capabilities of the fighter formula.

I'm not saying this formula is perfect - as it is not. It does open up the discussion, for either tweaking this formula or proposing another one. Thus far, this is the only one that has been proposed.

Goal:

Buff DEX.

Possible solutions:

1. Rewrite blockchance formula.
2. Buff shields (increase def/blockchance/both)

For starters.

Don't buff shields. Or the block chance. Level 10 pure dex bots shouldn't have 70% block.

I'd say, take every single dex weapon where dex > str*1.25, damage be raised by 150%.

Don't buff shields. Or the block chance. Level 10 pure dex bots shouldn't have 70% block.

Who said the buff had to be something idiotic like that.

I can get 70% block around Lvl 50?

Ahh shit, I didn't read your entire post... haha.

Dex is already great above level 100. There's very few builds that can beat a freaked castrator bot at lvl110+. Perfect freaked plasmas/evaps just manage to break even.

Ahh shit, I didn't read your entire post... haha.

Yeah I figured that. Silly hothead. ^_^

Anyway, perhaps someone can propose a reasonable buff to shields, not something stupid like Alan is saying. Just because you're buffing something doesn't mean you need to make it all-powerful.

I'm just saying blockchance shouldn't be changed. It's a fine formula. Dex bots are good at blocking. The damage is whwat hits them to hard. Every game I've played, dex/agility/magic always have crappy armors, but hit really hard.

@ saiyan, Plasmas whoop on castrators last time I checked :P Level 100+ is where strength does thin out, because conned answerers are good, but dex bots could be stronger. I spent about 30 minutes last night finding a dex/balanced bot to beat conquerers/equalizers. Yet, never found anything. I think it was you or DSum saying more armors from 40-120 strength right? Let's try that first, because the armors are thin there.

Increase the amount of DEF on shields.

And for you Alan, inb4 something like "but that would make really high levels have 100+ absorb." That's exactly the kind of assumption that you would make, like that out-of-nowhere "level 10s shouldn't have 70% block" whatever. I did not state a formula, I expressed an idea.

^I've also said raising the defense provided by shields would be a much needed "evening" out. I doubt it solves the issue, but it's make for a mroe even playing ground.

Also, Unique Shields would be awesome. ^^

Again, if dex begins overtaking strength in the 100s, buffing the shield isn't going to be an answer, and still leaves the issue of max 2500 def on the table. Alas, there are two debates here that need to remain separate:

1) New armor formula to allow for more than 2500 def. 2) Way to buff dex bots below 100.

For 2), I think adding armors is the right idea. If you buff shields, you also buff balance, and balance is plenty strong from the 120s onward, getting the best of both armor and shields. Unique shields should not be implemented until unique weapons are, for the aforementioned balance bot reasons.

Buff low level shields.

How? You give them more def/block, then the high level shields aren't as worthwhile. Not to mention, still leaves the issue of balance running wild. The other option is to weaken the power of str weapons. Although, no one seems to be onboard the nerf train in order to even things out.

There is sure to be a right amount of def to be added as to enable dex bots to be at least at par with their same levelled STR counterparts. Change the curve of the def of shields as DEX goes up. There is a correct balance out there somewhere, and it does not have to involve a nerf.

Wagering a guess, I'd say shields would need more than 100 def at low level to make a difference, and if you do that, then they are basically getting the same shields as a much higher level dex bot. The other option is to increase dex damage, which I'm not opposed to, but it creates another issue higher up the chain, which is in that area where castrators are dominant, as they would now have to get a damage buff as well. The best solution to the dex bot issue seems to be armors with req 40-120, as has been stated. That however, is still completely separate from the armor formula issue.

Who says that you can't buff the lower level end of the shields without buffing some areas? Then buff the shields more heavily towards the lower end. You are not obligated to change the other shields as heavily as well just because you think that the new def for the lower ones would make the mid level ones too little of an "improvement" from the lower level shields. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Mostly because the def would have to go up so high, all shields above that would be useless. Same adjustment if dex power is increased.

At higher levels you don't bother with the defense provided by the shield so much, it's the block chance that you aim for there. So no, that wouldn't make the higher up shields pointless.

this thread is annoying

Really? You think dex bots don't worry about the def at higher levels? I think that significantly devalues everything you've said. Considering a shield counts for about 20% of the total def value of a dex bot (using castrator as example as I had the build handy), I hardly think they don't care about the def value.

What are you talking about? Considering at higher levels the block chance and defense given rises simultaneously with the dex required for each subsequent shield, no people don't worry about the defense provided, they consider it as an added extra. One that I don't believe is enough to compete with strength bots.

I think that weapons need to be buffed. Shield def could be buffed by let's say 25%. @neps. I know absorb can't be higher than 100. Don't make remarks that are obvious. I just said level 10 because block chance is easy to get.

The formula needs to drop after 200str. So, higher armors could be added. Make dex bots stronger. Castrators have been brought up. If we don't buff them it's okay. Each level should have a certain build thatbis strong. Right now conquerers, equalizers, answerers, plasmas, then souls. Is a dex bot in there? No.

I've made dex bots, but usually give up around 60. Then go after level 100 for dex bots.

Correction: plasmas, castrators, then souls. I think castrators are a dex build.

What needs to be noted is stat points to damage, and stat points to armor. That is what should be balanced out to become consistent (at least more so).

Conned plasmas beat castrators

Funny, I just ran 2 different sims with ideal builds. I have the plasmas winning less than 1%. Maybe you should experiment a bit with ideal builds. =)

Did you sim level 105 plasmas or something? I'm talking 119

I ran 115s.

Funny, I just ran 2 different sims with ideal builds. I have the plasmas winning less than 1%. Maybe you should experiment a bit with ideal builds. =)

115 plasmas win 1% only? Impossible.

Bump.

So reading through this thread, it wasn't what I was really wanting, but I remember Ender you mentioning something about adding a new formula for post-2001 defense. I was wondering if you still intended on doing something of this nature or have you opted against it?

I don't have plans one way or the other at this time.