announcements

A few tweaks have been made to the energy system for the new round that begins in just over 20 minutes:

• Min EPH has been raised from 5 to 20.
• A max EPH of 60 has been introduced.
• Energy increase and experience reduction buffs have had their durations increased from 500 to 1,000.
• All bots active in the past 7 days have received a 1,000 duration buff called "Mindless Energy Sap". It increases energy gain by 250% and reduces experience gain to 25% of normal.

Good luck and may the best clan win!

A max EPH of 60 has been introduced.

That's an extremely steep drop.

And a huge kick in the pants for any high level bots.

That's a drastic change Ender, I personally thought the idea of changing min/max EPH had merit, provided you balanced them well enough for there to still be some benefit being a high level scorer. Unfortunately I don't think you have balanced them, a flat cap of 60 is far too low. If I were you I would have just tweaked the EPH formula to increase the rate of diminishing returns.

ender, sure you didnt do a typo and meant EPH 600? that would make shitloads more sense :/

maybe its just that its too easy to max out eph now that it doesnt seem balanced

60 Is too low but if you made it 600 all the dumpers will still be gaining a good amount so to awnser your question number two I would say nope he didn't make a mistake

I would raise it to 100 or even 150

This month is gonna be fun :D

i said 600 as it is closest to 60 typo wise :P

i wouldnt have capped eph anyway, id just make all dumped energy not count in energy offset. that way if someone makes lvl 250 bot for easy eph, they cant dump energy on it, they need to make whores lvl 250 also.

Raising the EPH cap just lets people gain energy for being idle, that really isnt what we want to promote. Sure it sucks that high levels cant gain much energy but if they score agai st non dumpers, any of their targets wont be hitting the EPH cap anyway so the only way it affects them is giving them energy they didnt earn (this month should I say, I appreciate they put effort in before, but effort in previous months shouldnt matter to this months clan race.)

but those high level bots can no longer score on their mains

No they cant, there were not many 150+ csers in bots2 because there were no whores there. In bots4 people purely attack their own bots above that level (with a few exceptions) and if Ender wants to remove dumping i think this is the right path to go down.

but putting the cap at 60 is harsh maybe raise it a little higher to about 100-150

So no higher EPH for higher levels? That's dumb, and really unfair on Myriad/Neps

mainly myriad because he can get his eph offset higher than 1.00

I appreciate that, but those bots, other than idle energy, dont help the clan, just themselves. I dont really believe they should be able to come #20 in monthly energy for putting literally no effort in (to energy scoring that is). I appreciate anyone in eternal/escapism is gonna disagree.

I appreciate anyone in eternal/escapism is gonna disagree.

That's because the majority of those people have put 10 times the time into the game that you have, only to have an update take away their ability to score.

I'm actually gonna play -less- on my main now than ever since my higher level bots generate a measly 60 eph and the most efficient way to play would be to cut my main out altogether and just play on a level 50 bot.

last month the first person with a offset of 1.00 is draoi in 27th place but why shouldn't he deserve that spot he spent alot of time leveling his bot and then adding wins to his bot to gain that high eph

now look at the top 20 in mauled by low level bots i feel for all those high level bots

what gonna happen now is people will take all the perm whores energy then dump it onto their main bot

He didnt do anything this month though. He has his (well deserved) place on overall high scores, level, wins etc, but for this specific month, he doesnt deserve recognition, as he did nothing. Someone who actually scored does, and shouldnt be punished because draoi has been playing longer. These are monthly rankings, not overall.

and shouldnt be punished because draoi has been playing longer.

Then why should Draoi be punished for playing longer? The perk to higher levels was you put in effort to level so your targets were more limited, but in exchange you got a higher idle energy score, it was a trade-off. Now he has no targets and shit EPH, he's got no chance of top 10.

He isn't being punished for playing longer, hes being punished (I wouldnt call it punished, but ill stick with that) because he levelled above everyone, to rely on attacking himself (I assume, I didnt play when he was active) which is something Ender is looking to.remove.

ender how many new people have joined the game since last year January i can bet its not that many to me the barrier on eph should be raised higher purely for those high bots and so what if he leveled to attack himself with other bots he is gonna spend time doing that and win dumping them so he should deserve to get in the top 30

do you know what, Hahahahahha! because all of them people dumping and building dumpers, it was a waste of time, I really hope eternal get beat now! Peace ender

I really hope eternal get beat now!

Lol'd

Yes, this is a big change for high level bots, but the system was broken and something had to be done. A bot having a high level shouldn't generate huge amounts of idle energy purely because it is of high level, energy should come from action and rank should require constant effort to maintain. Obviously the players that can no longer reap the benefits of this are unhappy, but this wasn't the direction I wanted the game to go in.

High level bots won't necessarily be left in the dark for the energy race long term. I've talked about a PvE energy system that will provide targets for them and I'm really excited about what this idea could do for the game, but this is going to take some time to build. In the meantime, the only way to make energy come from action was to limit idle energy, and for now this means you need other bots in your level range to collect energy.

This new update is not going to affect dumping. We saw that dumping was prevalent even before variable EPH was introduced, and now that the system has more or less gone back to the way it was, there's no reason to suggest it won't still be prevalent. The only difference is that you can make a highly competitive score at level 50 now.

Personally, I think this is a much too radical change to implement with just a day's notice. Sure, the intentions are good - now newcomers will have a better chance of getting into the top 10 monthly, but at the expense of many of the long-time players that invested time into levelling their mains and making many high-level dumpers with the intention of using them with the old system.

If this was the system you wanted all along, why was the static EPH system changed in the first place?

This new system is far more 'broken'. There is a reason you moved away from it in the first place right? Raise the cap on max EPH to 250 so at least high level players have something to do for the month. You wanted to get us playing on our mains, which i'm all for btw, so i'm not sure why this is the direction you went, i guess it's good for the low level guys, but i'm not sure why you'd want to alienate your higher level players.

Just changing min EPH to 20 alone would have been enough. Shoegazer doesn't use dumpers and he gets top 10 every month off his 5 EPH bots, now he can get that x4.

The fuck.

This new update is not going to affect dumping.

Nor was it meant to. It addresses the idle EPH problem discussed at length here.

Personally, I think this is a much too radical change to implement with just a day's notice.

I proposed this in my first post a week ago here.

Sure, the intentions are good - now newcomers will have a better chance of getting into the top 10 monthly, but at the expense of many of the long-time players that invested time into levelling their mains and making many high-level dumpers with the intention of using them with the old system.

Upsetting people that had invested into the existing system is pretty much unavoidable if I want to change and improve the game. This is part of any online game and I hope that you'll recognize the long-term benefits of the direction I'm trying to take the game in.

If this was the system you wanted all along, why was the static EPH system changed in the first place?

Because I'm only human and I make mistakes. Unbounded variable EPH was an idea that didn't work out, so we're shifting back to what I see as flawed, but less flawed system. I've described longer term plans above to address this.

Raise the cap on max EPH to 250 so at least high level players have something to do for the month.

This is in direct contradiction to what I'm trying to do. By "something to do for the month", do you mean sit there and collect massive amounts of idle energy so they can rocket into the monthly rankings for pretty much no effort?

No, i mean so that my dumpers can actually gain energy for me to transfer so i can have a chance at competing in the monthly clan race.

You said you wanted to get people onto their mains, and what you've implemented is in direct contradiction to that.

You said you wanted to get people onto their mains, and what you've implemented is in direct contradiction to that.

This change addresses idle EPH, not dumping/playing on mains. The to-be-implemented PvE energy system will address the latter.

Oh this is new, long-time players complaining about them making too high level characters in a game and then finding "nothing to do". "There's not enough high level content" or "why are there so many benefits to being a lower level" are so common on online games you can't find one in which someone doesn't say it. You want to know why there's not enough high level content? Because you're catering your time and effort to 1-10% f your entire game's population. In this game it's slightly higher because there are not that many new players that stick around. Ender realizes that there needs to be something for them to do while he works on the PvE system. What he could've done was nothing and let neps crap over all your parades this month again with his bazillion dumpers and have himself in the #1 and #2 all over again. Now shut up and get scoring noobs.

As I said earlier, it's a matter of balance Ender. It's unfair to force higher level scorers into your PvE energy system, they should still have a chance to compete in the traditional monthly energy competition. You should have spent a bit of time reworking the variable EPH formula, decreasing the effect of wins and level in particular.

It's also important for you to realise your own time limitations Ender, you've been talking about the PvE energy system and tournaments for a long time. I'm not complaining, but you shouldn't make such a change, tell us how your PvE energy system will provide balance and then implement it half a year later.

As I said earlier, it's a matter of balance Ender. It's unfair to force higher level scorers into your PvE energy system, they should still have a chance to compete in the traditional monthly energy competition.

The PvE energy system will allow bots of any level to compete in the monthly energy competition.

It's also important for you to realise your own time limitations Ender, you've been talking about the PvE energy system and tournaments for a long time. I'm not complaining, but you shouldn't make such a change, tell us how your PvE energy system will provide balance and then implement it half a year later.

A fair point, I don't have a great track record lately. I'm really going to work hard at getting something out for December though. I've already started a design document for the system and have a lot of fun ideas.

Everyone should take a minute to look at the clan and energy rankings. Neps isnt top, Eternal look beatable, the top 10 energy isnt 90% eternal + lyrad. You guys have wanted a chance to win, everything is even playing field now. Doesnt matter what dumpers you have, you can win this month if you want it bad. Go win.

Is it possible to raise the rph to say 150-200 now that the race has "started"? I mean, it's 8 hours in and I hear that the dumpers some people depend upon are just gaining too little energy. Could you raise it to let them have 100k energy at 1.00 ratio by the end of the month? I think this is the only real complaint in the mass of text.

By 1.00 ratio I meant eph value.

Maybe you could let any bot that's gotten a top 100 monthly energy trophy within the last few months reset their level and keep other stats if they wish. Or reset to level 20 or whatever seems more practical. Just a thought.

Personally, I knew I wouldn't be playing a ton when the EPH was changed ect. so I had my bot leveled specifically to benefit from the changes. If the system is going to be like this I would prefer to be able to attack things while I'm on. Making dumpers and such is too slow for the amount of time I put in with this system.

Neps isnt top

Although that is true, the reasons for that are actually completely unrelated to the update.

Well. Looks like scoring for me is gonna suck something special. Kinda wish I had my hordes of level 30's to dump on my level 50 bot again.

Unrelated note, pretty sure neps is untouchable for #1 energy for a long ass time.

I personally think this is awesome.

Puts everyone on an even playing field.

Eternal look beatable

you sure about this because it will have to be a hard thought fight

Doesnt matter what dumpers you have

nope they will just make 10 times more clans now

and if they do i really dont blame you guys :)

and alan no body listen's to your views you are unwanted on here

Lol, you say that because Nos said that. I see what you are trying to do. You suck up to him, so Eternal is nicer to you. Good try.

im not arsed if eternal are nice to me or not if i was tryna suck up to him id be up his arse permanent when did nos say this? i really think you should be banned and keep getting banned but for me this is going off the subject

I don't understand how it's considered kissing my ass just because another player has now stated that banned players should remain banned....

Explode also stated this in the other post does this mean he is too

Maybe allow EPH to go past 60 but only based on energy offset, and maybe cap it again at 200~ for a 6.0 offset. Lets people regenerate a bit more energy after having put work in, and doesn't reward dumpers/idles.

As drastic change like this probably would have required a reset, how are we now supposed to score our way into the top 10 ? It's going to be interesting to see what the top energy this month will end up being.

how are we now supposed to score our way into the top 10 ?

The same way as always.

make 50 dumpers not 20 or make 50 win dumpers is if it easier and then fight them its 1000 energy per hour which ever one you choose to do

its the same energy system as when the game went live, except now idle energy can increase to 60 per hour instead of a constant 20 regardless.

how are we now supposed to score our way into the top 10 ?

The same way as always.

I think he meant the total energy top 10?

Yip that's what I ment, I'm just irritated because i prepared for a month with the intention of scoring for 2 months just upset I can't use my dumpers like I expected to.

But adapt or die.

Besides all the changes I still enjoy playing and I'm looking forward to Enders PvE system he's working on.

PvE system? I'm interested to hear a bit more about that.

PvE system? I'm interested to hear a bit more about that.

http://bots4.net/forum/4/4526

Somewhere in there he mentions it, I forget if it's in-depth at all.

http://bots4.net/forum/4/4429

This is where the idea started I think. Not sure if that's where Ender picked it up though.

Love the changes, they reward active bots rather than parked bots high level high ratio bots. It's pretty easy log on and attack stuff

I like that you need to be active to get a good place. However, the system was changed to a variable EPH so that higher level bots could also be competitive. It turned that low level bots didnt have a chance against high level bots so the balance was turned to the other side. This change makes low level able to compete again. However I think they have more advantage than higher level bots again. I recomend that EPH should be capped at 200 EPH (4800 idle energy per day). A lower level bot can compete with that amount of idle energy I think. It would be more balanced.

I think the EPH formula needs to be revisited and reworked completely, or removed. I think Ender needs to reintroduce the Bots2 style of clan score back where you only gain from attacking/being attacked. It would remove the "finite" amount of energy the game currently has where we only have as much energy as players have in clans, thus removing the problem of lower vs higher level bots and the amount of energy at these levels. It would also only support active bots period.

Rather he opted to introduce a completely new system. I applaud him for his effort, and understand this is a new game entirely and he wants to create it in his image, but currently his image is ruining the game I loved. His constant back and forth of his implementations of what he deems to be "appropriate" or a "failed experiment" are growing ever so tiresome on me. I adapt to one change only for him to change it shortly there after causing me to completely rework my strategy. It makes me not want to play at all when I constantly have to change to adapt to his constant changing of the games elements.

this system is good,now i can beat some ass ^^ ..but that is truth for higher lvl is not good,but any who want go for this comeptetion can make little level bot and go hard...this is chance for new members ...now all can be in top 10,me 2.. Ender this is test month,do you only try this,or stay 4ever...

smeker _

The EPH system before worked fine, it was pretty much perfect. Anyone at any level had a chance to get in the top 10. That freak neps is the problem, he abused it by playing all day. Without neps, there would be no complaints from anyone.

Eternal may disagree but you guys know this is true

That freak neps is the problem

O. "To him they are variables in an equation. One at a time, each variable must be solved and counted. That's his purpose; to balance the equation."

N: "What's your purpose?"

O: "To unbalance it."

Through reading the entire forum post it's told me a few things

1) Energy system has changed again - Get over it!
2) People constantly talking about neps - Get over it, don't like the fact that he's dominating then put more time him like he does.
3) Ender has said from the start that he's going to be changing things in order to find the best way to work the game - Rome wasn't built over night people, it's going to take time for the game to be complete (if ever) so if you don't like it then don't play, in my view Ender should be thanked for trying to sort out the games issues.

love that neps XD On aserious note fuck off people that blame everything on neps. Neps isnt the issue, the issue would still be at hand cause theres other great players in this game. I am not a great player lol. Just throwing that out there. Even if everyone was noobs there would still be complaints. thats life. Either way neps aint the issue. Stop your bitching and try to beat him at what he is good at. ITs the fact that no one is trying to compete with him so in stead you have to bitch instead of try! thanks!

-rithy

Loving the changes

are we going to get new changes for december still?

I wasn't able to work out one aspect of the new PvE system to my liking just yet unfortunately, so it's going to be delayed a little. I'm considering rolling it out mid-month December, so it'll either be that or January.

New year, new game in my opinion. Although one more month waiting can be painful :P

what about announce how the system will work and get some feedback from the players?

Eternal wins November 2012

almost mid-month