suggestions

I know traditional tournies haven't been implemented yet, but I thought I'd just put this idea out there because I've thought about it for some time since bots2.

The idea:
Basically, the categories and all the fighting are all the same as in regular tournies, but instead of using pre-shopped gear to fight with, you'll use gear that you shop within an allocated time period. This time period would probably be level/category-based; longer for higher levels since the better gear is rarer. You'll also have an allocated amount of kudos with which you can buy your gear. This would also be level-based since better gear is more expensive.

So between the time of the tournament opening for sign-up and a certain time before the tournament begins, you pick a time when you'd like to start your 'shopping period'. Once you start it, you can't pause it, but you can choose to end it early. During this time you can't fight or be fought and you can't train (so you can't get any more kudos than you are initially given). All your normal gear and kudos are stored away for when your shopping period is up and you return to normal play. To reduce coding issues, the showroom used for your shopping will be the same one used for general play, so you'll want to pick a time when fewer players are online ;)

This style of tournament would open up a range of more strategical builds that you don't see in regular tournies. Since your kudos are in short supply, you won't be able to buy your perfect heraldic set + corpsemourn, and even if you had the money you probably wouldn't even see more than one or two pieces in the allocated time period. So maybe you'll have to sacrifice a good helm or some boots to get that awesome body armour or your optimal weapon. Or maybe you'll decide to go with a shield since they're more common than most weapons. Lots of fun possibilities :) This would provide an opportunity for bots who are able to use a wide variety of armours and weapons efficiently and still perform well.

Well I'll admit I got a bit excited as I wrote this up, but what does everyone else think? It has to be significantly different from regular tournies to justify the large coding needed, but I think it would be quite fun. Luck is always an interesting element, and imo this would be better than any lottery or whatever event that is purely luck-based since it also requires some strategy.

Btw, kudos if you took the time to read all of that, I didn't realise it was so long :/

Oh and to add more fun, perhaps the winners of each category can have part or all of their gear shown off :p Maybe even at the winner's discretion ;) *I won category 4 while using a tarnhelm!* etc. Ok that would probably never happen, but it was just an example :p

Sounds like you play some card games :)

I like this =)

Maybe I do Sera, but what do you think about the suggestion? :)

seriously, this is a cool idea.. gives ANYONE a chance at wining a tournie =) maybe have this AND the old school tournies?

Yeah that was my intention Hobo, to have this tournament supplement the regular ones.

Its nice, unfortunately do not think its gonna be anytime soon implemented.

Lots of bitching gonna happen to people that have bad luck, because bots is such a predictable outcome people won't like this 'uncertainty factor'.

Its a tad restricting, as you cannot fight or train in that period, and you gotta allocate somewhat to 12 hours or more, due to the variety of our online players and their timezones. Which could potentially eat up 1 whole day in the month of almost downtime/selective downtime.

Thats the criticism only of course, I like the idea. Reminds me of my card games I used to play.. can only have certain cards, can only have this many points.. Warhammer/Magic and stuff come into mind :P

'uncertainty factor' was kinda what drew mw into the idea =)

wait wait.. one question, say if we have stars, could we order something in that time?

well you should be able to order, but not buy it and use it obviously Hobo.. *rolls eyes* :D

Hmm I see what you mean about 12hr shopping periods... perhaps you could have the option of pausing it a couple of times and that's it? Or maybe the periods could be restricted to <5 hrs to add to the randomness :)

I did think about the inability to train/fight while shopping. Maybe you could be allowed to train/fight separately and just have the shopping separate. Two different sets of gear and kudos if you will. That could make things pretty complex/confusing, but yeah it's definitely something that would have to be addressed especially with the long shopping periods.

Thats the most complicated factor in your whole thing. Potentially if its easy to do, as floR did it, we can have those two showroom ID thing going on where one is the tournament one and one the normal one.

But its gonna be somewhat messy and hard to do. Tournaments needs to be somewhat fair even if the game isnt always. Its hard to be fair with a limited time to players that have up to 12-15 hour time difference. Potentially the easiest way is to just have the second showroom activate for 15 hours before tourney time, then stop. Essentially even if you give them more time, it doesnt matter as they only have a certain allocated kudos amount.

My thoughts were that you get to choose when you want to start your shopping period. So if you want to start at 8:00am your time, go for it. Or if you prefer camping at midnight or w/e, you can also do that.

Yeah I know- i think thats quite tough to do each bot individually has a timer, especially when there are alot of bots. Essentially a general timer with a separate showroom for everyone that activates during the tourney phase for 15 hours or so or even 24 hours is simpler. Or even 48 hours. Essentially the point was that they got a limited amount of kudos and even if that shop is open for 100 hours they cannot buy more than they have.

Of course no can say for sure so thats up to Ender.

Ender? -waits-

Bah you lure me in here with thoughts of shopping & I get hit with tourney stuff :P

But seriously, cool idea Pat.

There are a few bits I don't quite agree with though. I like the idea of having set kudos (which could vary by bracket), but I do not like the idea of a set shopping time. For higher level bots you could camp all day & still not get your pieces, so then it becomes more about luck & I do not like that idea for a tourney.

Instead how about you have a fully stocked showroom, but you have limited kudos with which to buy all your gear. Then a quick speed shop & you're ready. This way you would have to plan your build & make appropriate sacrifices.

I didn't read all of the above posts, but heres my take on this.

Have the tourneys consist of all the compeditors in each division that wear or are assigned the exact same equipment and weapons for the tourney. This will put a new emphasis on the bots build and not what they are wearing. Which btw is what real wars makes the player do. Make the tourney be the same as the real war game is. The strongest players keep on winning time and time again because they know how to build the strongest bots. While the int bots and people that aren't interested in the perfect bot builds needed to win a real wars scenario can find something else to do or they can quit because they are tired of losing every single battle. High ratios are now meaningless so you might as well remove it as a stat...

lol rose, did you read the last word of the title? :p

Anyway, I still like the idea of a time limit to buy your stuff, however long it might be. If you give everyone a full showroom to pick stuff from, people will eventually find out the best builds to make with the given amount of kudos, and it will just turn out to be another utterly predictable tourney. There needs to be a nice balance between luck (seeing the right items in the showroom in time) and skill/strategy (making good decisions with gear etc). I know that could make it more difficult to implement, but I'd still prefer it this way.

I skimmed through this thread and generally like the idea. It would be a long ways off if it ever did happen as it's on the non-trivial side of implementation and there are other things to get to in the meantime, but I will keep this in mind.

We could have the normal tournament and then this tournament

Like one in the middle of the month one at the end

seriously, this is a cool idea.. gives ANYONE a chance at wining a tournie =) maybe have this AND the old school tournies?


About 7 post ago =)

Finally read this thread.

I was a tourny freak in bots2. Built lots of things lower than 119. Whooped tons of people. I have/had all of the builds for each category by working them out and figuring them out. I've had help and I've given help.

Tournys can't and shouldn't be random. If you take the time to build a 'perfect' bot to win. Then, you should get to win. For "people to win more often" is a lame quote. You can win just as often if you play the normal tourny. The randomness is BAD.

The shopping thing is kind of cool than rose come up with. Full shop room + 2m kudos = fun. But.....This idea should not effect the "true" tournament.

-Alan

if you'd actually read it all it was suggested to have "normal" tourneys and random ones,

Sounds like a alright idea to change/add something new to the tourney scene.

However, I think the intent behind Pat's idea (Essentially to give nearly all bots a chance) is what Ender should take from this suggestion. This could lead back to changing game dynamics, tweaks to armours, added weapons, etc. I’m particularly drawn by the 'random' stat attributes of armours suggestion.

Also I'm not sure if the old style tournament could take place in conjunction with this new suggestion. Players would be particularly irritable if they had previously camped the 420 set (Normal tourney) and then came to realise their effort was of no consequence to the new tourney and they had to hit the showroom again. I don’t see any suggestion that includes more camping as a good thing. I'm also not sure about its long term popularity.

Yeah Brad you could be right about some people not liking all the camping. The way I see it though, is you're not camping for exactly 4 armours and 2x one weapon type like when you redis, you are hoping to see a couple of these items, and making do with whatever else you can find/buy.

The real interesting part is where you haven't seen any of your favourite items in the showroom, but you have the option of picking up some borderline awesome items and you've got to make that choice in 60 seconds :) Or deciding if you want to buy str bolstering armours to give you a chance of buying better armours in the hope that you'll pick up enough +str bonuses along the way to eventually equip it.

This game already doesn't involve enough action on the part of the player, I'm hoping a tourney like this would improve on that. If it turns out to be not that popular, it could run every 2/3 months just so that it's a bit of a novelty rather than a mainstay.

If this were implemented, FYI, it would be in addition to the standard tournament, not in replacement of. More regularly-scheduled special events like tournaments is something I'd like to have.

Yeah I mentioned that, so the normal tourney would run every month and this tourney/other special tournies would run every couple of months in addition, depending on their popularity.

This would be perfect. Would add variety for once, rather than just the same old perfect strength builds. I like.

I miss the regular tourney. It's kind of why I was still playing in the first place. Sure can't wait until Ender has the time to be able to finish coding it. CAN'T WAIT!!!

This suggestion would so favor dex over str since their armours are cheaper and less rare, not even to mention the shield :)

dexies compete with low lvl str about armor so not really easier to get

dexies compete with low lvl str about armor so not really easier to get

Not true. Unless there are hundreds of bots online 24/7, it would still be an advantage. Take, say, Venom Grip vs. Shade Armlet Gloves, for example.

Venom Grip shopchance: 3.15% per refresh (72.20% chance one will spawn within an hour) Shade Armlet Gloves: 0.6% per refresh (21.39% chance one will spawn within an hour)

So if the alloted camping period was something like 12 or 24 hours, you're almost guaranteed the armors you want if you camp properly.

Not to mention Shade gloves fall just short of 1900% more expensive than a Venom Grip. Talk about a tight budget. So yes, it would indeed favor DEX bots.

Str bots get the advantage of better freaking armours though. Also, bots with shields get shafted more due to luck in tourneys so I'd call it pretty even.

Str bots get the advantage of better freaking armours though. Also, bots with shields get shafted more due to luck in tourneys so I'd call it pretty even.

Like stated though, if you have a budget then you're forced to focus on a particular set of armor. Freaking usually requires the purchase of some inexpensive armors to acquire the more expensive "freaked" ones but with a budget you might not have the funds to do that.

It's true kudos might be a bit of a sore point for str bots, so the kudo formula could factor in str as well. Nothing too drastic though, as I think it would be more interesting to see how bots fare with a balance of unique and non-unique gear, rather than all perfect unique gear.

Also, bots with shields get shafted more due to luck in tourneys

I don't see how randomness could be a shield bot's enemy any more than it could be its friend. Shield's increase the probability of blocking, and unless the tournament uses a different block formula, I don't see how they could "get shafted more due to luck." Or for any kind of bot for that matter. Luck could just as well make them block every single attack. Then, "luck" in this case would be shafting its opponent, not them.

Con is the only stat that matters in tournaments

^_^

@neps ... i did say LOW lvl str bots and try compare items with equal (str) req next time

then there's the issue about dex bot sacrificing a weapon for a guarantied non-unique shield witch cannot even compare in defense with a normal body with the same str req, so i don't see any disadvantages for str bots that are worth mentioning

i did say LOW lvl str bots and try compare items with equal (str) req next time

You said DEX bots compete with low level STR bots.

Venom Grip is used by many low level STR bots.

Why should I compare items with equal STR? What would be the point? We are talking about how DEX bots would benefit from a tourney like this compared to STR bots. Do same-level STR bots and DEX bots have equal STR?

u know i know they don't have, and i know u know that's not my point

but back to your argument, comparing the expenses for say a pair of glove for a str bot and a dex bot the way u did, just ain't enough for the full picture. u cannot say that the dex have a major lead exactly because the competition on getting those items is so much higher. a lvl 130 dex bot has to compete with all the lvl 50ish str bots out there while the lvl 130 str bot only have like 100 others going for that same build, and yes there items may be more expensive but so are the dex bots shields, and if the str bot can get it's 3 hit in on the tourney fight then that shield is useless for the dex bot because the defense of a shield is nothing to count with in the first place.

I don't see how randomness could be a shield bot's enemy any more than it could be its friend. Shield's increase the probability of blocking, and unless the tournament uses a different block formula, I don't see how they could "get shafted more due to luck." Or for any kind of bot for that matter. Luck could just as well make them block every single attack. Then, "luck" in this case would be shafting its opponent, not them.

Ok, assume there are two equally optimal builds for a given level, a shield based dex or balance bot and a str bot. Given that the bots are better than all the rest of the entrants, they'll win most of their fights naturally.

If the shielded bot gets lucky against a bot it should easily beat, it won't make a difference, they'll just win those fights by a bigger margin (eg. untouched). However due to the variability of their fights, they'll lose more often to bots the SHOULD beat given their stats.

I made a gaia blade bot in bots2 for the 146-170 category. It was better on paper than doom maul bots, but the best it ever placed was second I believe. The consistency of mass con + doom mauls meant they won almost all the fights they 'should' have won, whereas mine probably fluked some losses to blaster maul bots or something.

What if, everything went by it's "true" stats. No random chances, except damage.

Then, dex bots would PWN! :D

comparing the expenses for say a pair of glove for a str bot and a dex bot the way u did, just ain't enough for the full picture

What aspect of the "full picture" compensates for the overwhelming DEX advantage of cheap and commmon armors? The only thing you've been able to come up with is "more competition from low level STR bots." At the time of my writing this, there are 25 players online. It goes to 50 on peak hours. You think out of those 50 players, ten or fifteen are looking for a Venom Grip? It's much, much, much easier to camp them. Despite the "competition," so what if a lot of people want them? There's plenty to go around anyway. And you think Shade stuff, for, example, don't get yanked? They do. Trust me, they do. This game is more mature than you think at the moment, and it will be even more mature by the time this gets implemented, if it ever does.

and if the str bot can get it's 3 hit in on the tourney fight then that shield is useless for the dex bot because the defense of a shield is nothing to count with in the first place.

You've been blinded by the frustrations of a DEX bot, you see only their weaknesses. How about if a DEX bot blocks every single attack a STR bots makes? STR's weapons would be useless, if we use your reasoning. So are STR bots' weapons useless against a DEX bot? What if a STR bot gets minimum damage every single hit. Think of the possibilities! Looks like STR weapons are not a very good investment after all.

there items may be more expensive but so are the dex bots shields

240 DEX shield = 156,000 Kudos
Raven Set (At least 235 STR) = 3,236,000 kudos

However due to the variability of their fights, they'll lose more often to bots the SHOULD beat given their stats.

This is what I don't understand in your reasoning. Shouldn't they win more fights they "should lose" too as well? And, how can you say a bot "should" win? Even sims will tell you that no bot goes 100-0 against even a half-decent build. You could probably blame bad luck for your DEX entry's fate, but not the system itself.

This is what I don't understand in your reasoning. Shouldn't they win more fights they "should lose" too as well? And, how can you say a bot "should" win? Even sims will tell you that no bot goes 100-0 against even a half-decent build. You could probably blame bad luck for your DEX entry's fate, but not the system itself.

But if they are an optimal build for their level, there won't be any fights they 'should' lose. By 'should' lose I mean, they have a >50% chance of losing. I mean of course every bot loses some time even if they are the best, but what I'm saying is due to the variability of shielded bot fights, they will tend to lose fights that optimal str bots wouldn't. Kinda like a greater standard deviation, but the same mean if you want to think of it in terms of stats.

Btw I also had similar experiences with a castrator bot. It got beaten regularly by weaker builds, like debilitators for example.

What Myriad said is true. I was going to write something similar yesterday but was too lazy. Shields make a fight more variable. Think this will explain it better:

Consider two lvl100 bots in the tourney, one perfect dex bot and one perfect str bot. Both builds go 50/50 against each other so you would think that it would be a tie. Not so, because a lvl90 bot in the same category messes up things for the dex bot. This is because any lvl90 bot will have a greater chance to beat the lvl100 dex bot than to beat the lvl100 str bot. Go sim some random builds as see for yourself.

Simply put, dex bots have a greater chance of losing to bots much weaker than themselves. They may win a few fights against much stronger bots, but if they're already at the top lvl of the category, this is not an advantage over str bots because there are no stronger (higher lvl bots) in the category.

...in addition, if you look at the actual tourney numbers. Say each bot fights the other bot 100 times. The three bots above are in the tourney.

The lvl90 beats the lvl100 dex bot 20 times out of 100

The lvl90 beats the lvl100 str bot 10 times out of 100

The lvl100 dex bot beats the lvl100 str bot 50 times out of 100

The final points are:

Lvl100 str bot: 50+20 = 70

Lvl100 dex bot: 50+10 = 60

Lvl90 bot: 20+10 = 30

So the lvl100 str bot wins the tourney. Lvl90 is a synonym for weak bot. So it doesn't have to be a lvl90 bot. Just any bot weaker than the other two.

Ah, thank you, I understand now. :)

Let's look at it with just normal armors, that seem more comparable to me.

Level 130 inferno blade/oaken shield (Load) ______________________________ This was generated using Ender's build calculator. http://edmazur.com/bots/build_calculator.php

                             STR  CON  DEX  INT  ARMOR
mage plate                                         245
grim helm                                           92
bramble mitts                                       58
wyrmhide boots                                      54
inferno blade       (94-301)
oaken shield           (51%)                       187
                                                   636

STR :  100 =  100             Left-hand  : 0-0
CON :   80 =   80             Right-hand : 188.0-602.0
DEX :  366 =  366             HP         : 850
INT :   10 =   10             Block      : 70.00%
                             Absorb     : 50.44%

______________________________

cost: 2.510.548 cost/def: 3.947

Level 130 mega mauls (x2) (Load) ______________________________ This was generated using Ender's build calculator. http://edmazur.com/bots/build_calculator.php

                             STR  CON  DEX  INT  ARMOR
holy armor                                         800
titanium visor                                     403
adamantium gauntlets                               167
adamantium boots                                   184
mega maul           (80-260)
mega maul           (80-260)
                                                  1554

STR :  366 =  366             Left-hand  : 372.8-1211.6
CON :   80 =   80             Right-hand : 372.8-1211.6
DEX :  100 =  100             HP         : 850
INT :   10 =   10             Block      : 5.00%
                             Absorb     : 78.84%

______________________________

cost: 1.367.898 cost/def: 880

For me this looks like you have plenty of kudos to get at least one or two unique armor pieces as a str bot and still be in the range of the cost of the dex build. then there's the cap on block, is there a similar cap on absorb? plz run a sim on those 2 and tell me that the str bot wouldn't win most of the times.

First of all, there are lots of cheap-ass boots/gloves that you could use for your DEX bot. Not much more expensive than those non-uniques.

Second, you can't come in with two arbitrary builds and say they represent the some cardinal rule. You gave me a good non-unique STR build and a shit DEX build. What if I simmed your good Megas against this:

Level 130 castrator/ward (Load) ______________________________ This was generated using Ender's build calculator. http://edmazur.com/bots/build_calculator.php

                             STR  CON  DEX  INT  ARMOR
archon plate                                       465
barbute                                            152
crusader gauntlets                                  69
mirrored boots                                      65
castrator          (110-276)
ward                   (47%)                       162
                                                   913

STR :  164 =  164             Left-hand  : 290.4-728.6
CON :  102 =  102             Right-hand : 0-0
DEX :  280 =  280             HP         : 1070
INT :   10 =   10             Block      : 69.12%
                             Absorb     : 60.44%

______________________________

130 Non-Unique Megas vs 130 Non-Unique Castrator/Ward 130 Non-Unique Megas won 43182 times (43.18%) 130 Non-Unique Castrator/Ward won 56818 times (56.82%)

thought the discussion was dex vs str not bal vs str

I don't see any balanced builds.

Arguing semantics: waste of time. If that's all you have to say, well, lol, can't help you any further.

164 str / 280 dex is balanced. What the fuck have I been taught.....

Castrator clearly dex weapon, arguable the best dex weapon at that.

I do like my light sabers though. :)

Just thought I'd bump this thread as I still really like this idea. As it is basically impossible to win tourney cats below 200 without workshop freaking your bot these days, this may give chances to 'regular' bots to win tournies for a change.

I thought that formulae like these might be a good place to start if this idea appeals to some:

Allocated kudos = [level] x [str] x 100 (capped at max of 10 mill kudos)

Total allocated camping time (mins) = [level] x 2 (capped at max of 4-6hrs)