suggestions

Here goes. Energy needs to be gone. All it is, is dumping and fighting 0.00 bots at level 20-30. Pointless and not fun for higher level bots.

My Idea? Endex. Bring the system down to the very basics. 1-5 points at a time are gained for only winning and the ratio of the other bot must be 1.0 or higher.

Pros :

• Keeps "Whore" makers actively keeping wins on bots, which will make them go away
• Builds will be come better, which will need new weapons and armors to make them not stale
• The system will be so basic, it can easily be changed to counter the flow of the game
• Makes people have good builds, makes teams come together more so they can be the best instead of 1-2 man clans
• People can still fight 0.00 bots if they want for nice ratios, but cant get Endex Points.

Cons :

• Complete game overhaul

The System

• Based on fight time, you get 1-5 points
• Must be at war with the other clans
• To get points, you must have 1.0 ratio or higher and the opponent will need to have 1.0 ratio or higher also. This will keep people from getting 10,000 losses and war a clan then make their build really good and they can't give points.
• You can't lose points for a loss, toward the defender or attacker.
• Clans ranked either by Total Endex Points or could have a basic "Jans index" formula

Possible Endex Formula (Jans index)

Points * [(Clan_Ratio / 5) + 1] + [(Clan_Level / Overall_Clan_Level) + 1] / 2

Average Clan Level : 90

Points : 10000
Ratio : 5.0
Level : 100
Endex : 10000 * [(2.0 + 2.11)/2] = 20550

Points : 10000
Ratio : 10.0
Level : 100
Endex : 10000 * [(3.0 + 2.11)/2] = 25550

Points : 10000
Ratio : 5.0
Level : 150
Endex : 10000 * [(2.0 + 2.5)/] = 22500

So, even a high average clan, doesn't get that much more. I guess a high ratio clan would be best to do. Which results in more wins, but what if they just fight 0.00 bots to easily raise their ratio? They won't be getting points to keep up with a lower of a ratio clan. If you are above average, then you should get rewarded. The system needs to be taken all the way back to the basics.

Maybe the idea is a little rough, but I think it could work.
I do not take credit for the name of Endex. Nos came up with it

-Alan

The biggest arguments against this type of system when the energy system was devised was that there was a big deal about how this type of system would be detrimental toward new players and clans. Such as having a stable ratio, higher level, access to large and easy whore clans.

I really don't see how this suggestion is much different than JI except that how you get 'clan score' is more selective.

If you want to be a top clan, you will have to keep above the average level.

If whores have to be 1.0 ratio, then whores will probably go away. It would be a pain to keep whores at 1.0 ratio. You could even raise the min con rule. Tighten up the min equip you can wear.

Please tell me one game that lets a brand new player be in first place without working just as hard as the first place players.

Please tell me one game that lets a brand new player be in first place without working just as hard as the first place players.

And yet you are against dumpers? Where effort and preparation turns into energy?

Do you realize that if no one fought whores and all bots were real bots, not everyone would have a 1.0 ratio? Unless all rapes were 50-50.

To maintain your 1.0 ratio, you would need to fight whores. But wouldn't get points out of it.

If you got raped to under a 1.0 ratio you would have to rape whores to even be able to score, which would be endlessly annoying.

I like seeing pretty numbers besides my name, I'd rather not see them go away. Besides that if you made it so every could only get energy from bots with a 1.0 ratio 10 attacks and you'd gain a level. It'd be pointless. Everyone would be level 100 in two months.

Don't suck and you can keep the positive ratio.

Apparently, I did my tag wrong, what was cut was "You had better change the xp formula"

So with your system, whores would be a necessity, not an option.

With the current system they are optional. Optional as in the game does not depend on them to keep running.

Don't suck and you can keep the positive ratio.

lol, half your bots in dynasty are terrible and this would absolutely discourage any new player.

Don't suck and you can keep the positive ratio.

Don't suck at gaining energy/dumping, and you could win?

Freaking is also stupid.

Don't suck and you can keep the positive ratio.

Here's a thought experiment for you. Say only 10 bots existed. All ten are level 80 answerers. They start with NaN ratios. We use your system. What will happen?

Freaking is also stupid.

When you aren't good at doing something, it all seems stupid.

Here's a thought. Shut up.

Actually, neps poses a good question.

I'll answer it, to keep things positive ;)

In theory, all the bots would maintain a 1.0 ratio because they would win every other fight but no one would get any score because every other fight someone was below 1.0 ratio.

I think we all need to just chill and try and dull the personal assaults... on the other note

I dislike freaking because its a mechanic that I dislike... you don't have the stats for an item you shouldn't be able to use the item. Thats just my opinion though.

http://i.imgur.com/juSyl.jpg

Okay, I'll stop now.

In all honesty, there is not much original thought put into this suggestion. It basically looks like combination of real wars and jans index.

u mad bro? lol

kudos for taking the time to formulate an option to stop the dumping & change the game Alan. Most people just bitch & whine that it's not working :|

That said the fact that you need whores to compete in your system is a big flaw. So that element of it I dislike.

kudos for taking the time to formulate an option to stop the dumping & change the game Alan. Most people just bitch & whine that it's not working :|

lol, you should read some of the recent posts from that thread in the clan section :P

Somehow only Eternal players are against removing of dumping... ^^ again...

I like it the way it is :)

Somehow only Eternal players have won Top Clan plats.

lol neps

People will always be biasaed. I may be biased in favor of a system where I have achieved success. People may be biased against a system where they have constantly failed. But bottom line is:

I made use of the current system, and played it to my advantage. Hence I won some. If dumping gets abolished, and if I am still interested in scoring, I will adapt to the new system, whatever it may call for. I might win a few more. I might not, if I fail to adapt. But those who cannot adapt deserve to die out, myself no exception. I will never bitch against rules that give every player a fair chance based on his/her ability and dedication, and willingness to devote time.

People who kept bitching about the system but bitched instead of adapting did not win any. When dumping gets abolished, if they figure out how to make the new system work for them, they may win some. But if it they still can't, for the life of them, learn how to adapt, they will once again start bitching of the injustice of the system.

When you join a game, you play by its rules. Not being willing to go the distance then bitching about the energy system just because you can't win is like a fat person saying the rule that you have to dribble isn't fair because he gets tired. If the authorities decree that an amendment to the rules is necessary, then congratulations, maybe now you'll start having fun. But you'll never recover the lost time you spent, constantly losing and bitching about how a game's rules weren't custom made to help you, specifically, win.

2 things:

• this could run as a secondary system to energy, so we have both and thereby make the game more diverse, I can't see any reason to rule either out.

• as the system is described in the OP I don't see any reason that a <1.0 ratio bot couldn't attack a >1.0 bot and still get points, and also getting there ratio up, then whores really wouldn't be needed.

Here's a thought. Shut up.

It's hard to take your proposals seriously when attempts to critique/discuss your suggestion are met with reactions like that. You want people to either agree with you, or shut up. Why do you bother suggesting things if all you want is people to jerk you off? Plus you spam all the suggestion threads with "doesn't matter, suggestions don't get implemented." You post that every chance you get. Why this thread then? Leap of faith?

Thanks for taking the time to write this all out. I've had a list of changes I'm making to the energy system and I've been halfway through implementing them for awhile now. I'm going to focus on finishing that for now which I hope will address most of the concerns that have been raised about the current system.

Thanks Ed.

game balance changes ftw

I love how Ender doesn't even address the ideas Alan tried to make :P

I think what Ender said was, "Thank you for the thought and the maths, but I am currently in the process of already fixing this issue." Also, I love how you called All'n out for not making a suggestion and are now making fun of him for making a suggestion.. @_@

It doesn't positively change the game and clearly isn't well thought out which I mentioned :P

I love how Ender doesn't even address the ideas Alan tried to make :P

LOL same :P

@neps
Whole bots2 community was bitching about Rapture (well, you still are), when it maxed performance on clanscoring system, now you're trying to guard your spot, which is exactly the same as we had in bots2.
Yes, you are greatest on this system, yes you squeezed the most of it and I respect that, but bitching about others bitching is not so great :) Just sayin'

I don't think autoclickers qualify as part of "maxing performance," and I don't think floR intended them to be part of the system either.

Anyways, if you want to talk about Rapture's glory, you should definitely make a thread about it in the bots2 forum, where it belongs.

Also, where did I bitch about Rapture? You highly overestimate the share your clan claims in my thought processes. The only "rapture" I've thought about in the past few months involved psychoactive substances, the Left Behind series, and a 335-STR, 270-DEX weapon. The clan exited my concerns when it went belly up last year against Eternal.

Can you please award Neps with the platinum trophy "Burned+++"? That was pretty.


On a side note: I'm going to repeat myself till I'm blew in the face. If you want real wars you'd need to fix the xp system. There are many aspects to this game, one of which is the clan race, which is about energy (or cs) and that will ALWAYS involve whores to some extent... or it'd just be to hard to get energy. Besides who wants to win a month where its two clans with 1.15 and 1.10 monthly energy ratios battling it for first?

Exploiting the system is not ingenuity.. if it was any other game you probably would have been banned.

One of the difference between casual and serious gamers is that casuals usually consider anything they don't understand or anything used unusually to be cheating ("OMG WTF HAX!!1!"). Most forms of MMO theory acknowledge this distinction in mindset. Pros will consider ALL things within the game rules fair play, and will try to squeeze every last drop of success from what is accepted. Anything that is not explicitly said to be illegal IS legal.

Besides, I doubt any game would ban players for doing something that wasn't listed as against rules.

Let's put it this way..

When the new raid finder system came out many of the top guilds in the world discovered an exploit where they could keep farming bosses without having to worry about getting saved to them.. which meant they would pretty much get unlimited gear.

They ALL got banned. That is similar to what dumping is in my mind. You are avoiding the detrimental side of the system (ie. having to fight actual people and therefore gaining losses and losing potential energy).

I am talking about World of Warcraft.. forgot to mention that, haha.

Look at WoW's rules. I don't play WoW, but I'm sure if you don't see a specific rule that says that was wrong, you'll find some umbrella rule that covers it.

Ender has said that although he does not like it, dumping is not illegal. You are comparing something against the rules against something that has been explicitly said to be withing the rules, by the game creator no less.

Yes, but Ender is also a douche bag.. he is allowing things that obviously should be against the rules.

That being said, I do not mind if that is how people want to play.. in all honesty they know it is wrong, and it doesn't really affect me because I have removed myself from the equation.

I will wait and see what this "fix" Ender is going to implement for Energy before I bother thinking about it again.

Here are BOTS4's game rules by the way. Welcome to the game. =P

Also, a thread made by someone bitching about the same thing you are. You're kind of late, this has been discussed a thousand times over.

I know what the rules are, I just don't agree with them.

Lol, actually thinking about it.. I have been noticing a trend.

When floR was made aware of exploits within the system, he actually fixed them.

When Ender becomes aware of exploits he just makes them legal.

Goddamn joke.

Yeah, that's exactly what I meant about casuals thinking there is some sort of moral absolute when it comes to game rules, and that rules can be "wrong." Rules may not be fair sometimes, but they can't be "wrong." They are what defines what is wrong and what is not.

It's not about the rules being fair.. heck, I could make 100 dumping bots in a matter of days if I really wanted, it is about the rules making sense.

I was around the entire time Ender was remaking this game.. and I was extremely active in making suggestions for helping make the game better.. heck, I am the one that suggested smaller clans in the first place.

I was there when the energy system was being discussed and the point of it was to make people have to fight real bots, which I was against from the beginning, but eventually I decided it could be interesting.

What people are doing defies the entire point of changing the system in the first place.. it is far worse than whore clans ever were.

What people are doing defies the entire point of changing the system in the first place.. it is far worse than whore clans ever were.

How is it worse? Because now its harder? Because it needs more work? At least now many people attack other good bots for energy. My dumpers attack good bots for energy. With CS, A war on a "good" clan was basically useless. You just think it's worse because you can't just join a clan that has a couple hundred one-hit whores and fire away. You have to work harder for your score, and you don't like that. Is that it?

I fail to see how it is worse. It has its flaws, but it's a better system than CS ever was.

-_- I never joined clans because of their whores, I helped make epilepsy for FoB.

I don't see the system being any harder, in actual fact it is probably easier to maintain dumping bots than it was to maintain whores, because you only have to worry about attacks you are making.

Difficulty is also beside the point.

Lol. For CS whores, 1 win = 100 attacks worth of CS. Don't need to be camped, can be super INT bots that have shit builds. Does not require camping, unless you count leather gloves, boots, cap, etc.

For dumpers, 1 win's worth of energy = 2 attacks worth of dumping. Needs to be a good build and needs to be camped. Granted, they generate energy, but please. If you want to consider that some people will not gather on their dumpers and simply dump idle energy, well, that makes it even harder. For your consideration:

A level 100 scorer that uses dumpers.

With CS:

1 level 110 whore = 400 CS (equivalent to 200 wins).

With energy

1 dumper = 480 energy = (equivalent to, let's say, 24 wins.)
8 dumpers = 3840 energy (192 wins at 20 energy/win)

So no less than 8 fully camped "good" bot energy dumpers are needed to do the work of a single one-hit CS whore. Not to mention each attack made by a dumper gives half the energy of a "real" win. So you either need:

8x the bots, and 2x the clicks, if you don't gather, or:
2x the bots, and 3x the clicks, if you gather. (one click to gather, two to dump.)

I doubt anyone thinks making one-hit whores is harder than making dumpers, even with gathering wins factored into the equation. I could make twenty level 100 INT bots in one day, but I doubt I could make and fully camp ten 80 answerers in two days.

So basically,

The energy system is not perfect, but its a step in the right direction. It is so much closer to "real wars" than the CS system. It's much harder to, in your words, "exploit," which is why people who cba making dumpers say CS was better, though they may not admit or even realize it.

And frankly, to say that the energy system is worse than clanscore with all its whores is demeaning to Ender's efforts and all his work on this game. It is so much better and has obviously been given so much more thought. True, he had the hindsight to see where CS failed, but that doesn't take away from the splendid job he's done. To say that energy is worse than CS is an insult to all he's done.

I used to hate dumpers, but as I've said before, once you look into what is the best way to gain energy they are. How are dumpers preventing people from fighting good bots? One of the best ways to prevent someone for scoring is to online them.... with a good bot... Even if you loose 50% of the time you gain energy. Thats crazy talk! But its true. You are not punished in ANY WAY other than time for fighting good bots. The energy system is actually BETTER for fighting good bots than real wars. Yes.

The good thing about bots is that if you do not like the scoring system you can simply avoid it and level instead, which is what I have decided to do..

But chances are I will end up making dumping bots within the next month or 2 anyway.

I think what Ender said was, "Thank you for the thought and the maths, but I am currently in the process of already fixing this issue."

Yep. If you ask 10 different players how the energy system could be improved, you're likely to get 10 different answers. I know you guys want to debate it with me, but I think we're all better off if I spend my time coding rather than stuck in endless debate. I'll be more open to discussion when the changes are in.

Here's a simple message for all the ignorant whingers bitching about energy.

Don't like it? Go make your own game, dick

i like the idea of just randomly changing a whole bunch of stuff every month just to keep us on our toes.

It's pretty ignorant to say, 'if you don't like it, find another game to play'. If Ender permitted A/Cing, I'm pretty sure you'd try to convince him to change his mind rather than just quit and move on to another game.

I said make your own game. Is that any better? :)

its pretty ignorant to misuse the word ignorant to describe someone simply being rude.

bitching about energy isn't ignorant either, they be very informed and have well researched points.

people who call other people ignorant are generally the ignorant ones.

if you say so

If Ender permitted A/Cing,

Then I'd immediately go about trying to acquire/make an AC myself, assuming I was still interested in the game. It might still be fun, Level races/training for example, would pretty much be making the most efficient levelling build, since most competitive players would be training 24/7. Of course, it would be silly, Ender would never allow that.

The only "rapture" I've thought about in the past few months involved psychoactive substances, the Left Behind series, and a 335-STR, 270-DEX weapon.

Good book series, made my day that you mentioned it. Sadly I like it as a science fiction type novel even though it is supposed to be some type of theological book.