suggestions

This isn't really a suggestion, but there may be some that develop depending on how this thread goes.

Anyway, I know there's been some discussion about this, but I just thought I'd put the question out there in its own thread: What does everyone think about the current state of the game? Is everyone happy for bots4 to be more or less the same as bots2 (minus clans)? Is everyone ok with strength bots dominating the game again? Is everyone ok with the fact that most of the best builds at any given level are known by some players from bots2?

Please note I'm not trying to influence anyone's opinion, I'd just like to know how everyone truly feels about this. Because I and a few others could throw out dozens of formulae proposing changes, but if the majority of the bots community doesn't feel that any change is necessary then we'd be wasting our time.

I guess another important question I have is for Ender: How likely is it for any major changes (eg. to game formulae) to occur between now and the game release? Again, if it's not likely, then there's no point speculating.

Sorry for the long post, but I'd really love to know everyone's opinion :)

It's very unlikely there will be any major changes before the release.

Once the base stuff is finished though and the actual game is running, I'll start looking into rebalancing certain things, which may or may not include formula changes.

There is a big discussion in complaints, lack of, about how balance/dex bots are currently behind the curve of str bots in certain level range. You might enjoy the read.

"which may or may not include formula changes"

Shit meets fan in 3.. 2.. 1..

Eh, would it be better if I said I was never ever going to change anything at all no matter what?

I phrased that in a way that gave me flexibility to make (or not make) any changes I see necessary. And I'm not going to go in and willy-nilly change things up without first doing extensive testing and balancing.

One formula I can think of off the top of my head that needs fixing is absorb. It's broken at higher levels and new armors can't really be added without changing it in some way.

Oh you shouldnt pay too much attention to what people / i say :)

There's no pleasing everyone, so just go with what you think is best.

It might be better to redo the formula for absorb before the reset because there will be lots of qq if max/min players can't get the build they want in the level range for their main.

At this point people don't (or shouldn't) care that much about their bot.

The particular change I had in mind for absorb won't affect pre-2000 defense.

Thats pretty pooptackular, equipping the highest defense gear only nets you 2001 armor.

Side note; whats the new armors then? ;)

New armors (high level) are a very long ways off. They won't be needed for quite awhile.

We're wandering away from the purpose of this thread though and are now discussing minutia...

are str bots dominating the game? up until my lvl, id say i've came across some awesomely strong dex and balanced bots, and a few less of that good str bots. Yes, once good armors kick in, str bots will get stronger, but will they dominate the game?

fuck no

80-140 level ranges would say different.

well maybe, but then again, lvl 200 might beg to differ.

Do you even know what you are talking about?

seriously though, if answerer bot is strong, what does he become after he levels? and we will level fast, no more 0.1 ratio whores..you cant come from answerer to mega maul or soul harvester just like that. and what after souls? and who says that excaliburs might not be good afterall? or dread dealers? you dont think that dreads are capable of 66 wins on a 200 rape limit vs souls?

In the build that I threw together in my calculator, dread dealer with a shield will 60 out of 200 at 140. and 45 out of 200 at 130.

Show me this build you think thats good and I'll tell you otherwise.

You can go from answerers to souls...
And excals to dooms...

i think str is overpowered aye, im sittin up modest balanced bot with Silver Katana's gettin PWNED by str bots, like, i should have enough dex and block /w shield to ACTUALLY win a fight against a str bot but no, the fuckers walk all over me

number, I think you're missing the point. I wasn't trying to say that str bots win 3/4+ of their fights against dex or balance bots, I was saying that str bots are better than all other bots at almost all levels, excluding <50 and v high level bots. Most bots in the game fall in this range.

Is there a level where dex or balance builds completely dominate over str bots to the same extent as answerer or conq axe bots at their respective levels? There are some levels where the comparison is close, but it's never definite. I think there should be another reason for a person wanting to build dex/balance bots than just for novelty.

About the absorb formula, that's interesting because I've been thinking about possible new formulae. I was looking at improvements to absorb at lower armour defense, while keeping relatively the same absorb with higher defense. The problem I realised is that you're going to buff the training bots (who also have low defense) significantly with that approach, so ye it's probably best to keep the absorb the same at pre-2000 defense if there are going to be any changes.

Triple post FTL

K, I decided to post here instead of derailing the thread in Questions. It pissed me off a little bit that the only feasible advice that a reasonable person could give to a pure dex bot is to add str, to become a 1:2 dex bot. WHY is a pure dex bot not viable in terms of competing with other builds? If pure str bots can kick ass, then surely pure dex should be able to at least hold its own against ANY other bot (even other dex bots, and that's saying something).

I know this has been said before, but block chance needs to be raised, to 75% probably. I know, I know, Emanuel says high level dex bots are overpowered. But it's not like people are going to have a reasonable amount of con + absorb if they decide to head for 75% block. And even at ~300, when they will have substantial con, absorb, block AND weapons, it's going to affect everyone, so there will be an even playing field. It will only shift the balance of optimal builds towards those with more dex and less con. And I don't see that as necessarily being a bad thing. In the end, the MAJOR reason str bots are underpowered at high levels is because of the ridiculously low dmg on their weapons AND no new armours to capitalise on their high str. Not because dex weapons/shields are too strong.

Pure dex has always been compromised by the block cap. Ask pretty much anyone who has made one such bot and they will tell you at worst it sucked and at best it was fun to piss other people off with long fights.

Well fuck me, I never planned on this post being this long but I felt I needed to rant a little bit. Sorry :p

I think adding more weapons for pure dex bots would be helpful. I'm working on a dex bot right now and it doesn't seem like there's as many weapons available to them.

Also, the part about str bots getting better armor and such quicker is true as well. Improving the block cap might be helpful, as well.

I've been playing this game since bots2. Never really got big in a clan, but really liked the style of this game... Especially the fact that its pretty much solve-able.


I would highly suggest against messing with the game formulae much. That kind of modification can have a ton of unintended effects on game balance.



THE BEST WAY TO BALANCE THIS GAME IS THROUGH ITEMS

Adding and modifying items directly effects the specific build you are targeting (str/dex/bal). It allows you to specifically boost or nerf power for certain level ranges and classes. And in doing so, you don't throw other builds out of whack.

Dex bots need a boost. Everybody knows it. Dont worry about coming up with some crazy new hit% forumula, just beef their weapons. They could use some extra 1str:3dex ratio options in the early/mid levels as well.

I modified the Bots4 Fight simulator that was posted on here a while ago. Mine gives you a "Train report" for your average xp/fight, xp/hr, fight time, and win rate% over 1000 fights vs every train bot on the list. This tool allows you to pick the most efficient trainbot for your build, but it also allows you to compare the leveling potential of different builds as well.

DEX BOTS WILL LEVEL AT LESS THAN HALF THE SPEED OF STR BOTS after level ~40-60 depending on build. Win Rate % is slightly lower for Dex bots across the board, but evens out around level 90+ when they get Pain Needle and >65%block.

I really think you should just start by upping the level~30-150 dex based weapons damage by around 25%. Even with a boost that large, they would still level slower and have a difficult fight against str bots. Adding a dex weapon with maybe ~2/3rds the requirement of the nunchaku would be helpful too.



The best part about adding/modifying items is - its much more fun for the players to see new and interesting items that they could design new builds around! Screwing with the game formula could unintentionally wreck some builds, but items are far less likely to do so.



Alright, there's my shpeel. This is a good game, and I'd like to see it grow :)


Cliffs:
MOAR ITAM PLZ

p.s. I like the game better without durability being a factor.

Also something needs to be done about being able to equip gear above your stats - i.e. you equip one piece of armor to have the stats to buy/equip a new weapon. Equip the weapon, and then unequip the armor and replace it with INT or something and continue using the weapon without penalty.

I hope that makes sense. It is quite exploitable right now.

i agree about durability, i like the game without durability being a factor more also!


atleast make it not so big factor, with this longer fights, we will need to change armors every week! :(

Belok's suggestions about increasing the weapon damage of dex bot is a pretty valid one and its a quick and simple fix and will only affect targeted level ranges.

I might point out that max level bots(not a big factor) have armor absorb related problems and ender has hinted that the fix for this *might* affect the absorb of lower level bots.(nerf overall, but str hit the hardest)

As to the idea that str bots level quicker, the block xp equation could be modified to grant more xp.

also; someone shoot me a link for this sim against training bots. I only got one that compares 2 bots.

or bmail me and I'll give you my email.

[quote]Belok [113]
p.s. I like the game better without durability being a factor.

Also something needs to be done about being able to equip gear above your stats - i.e. you equip one piece of armor to have the stats to buy/equip a new weapon. Equip the weapon, and then unequip the armor and replace it with INT or something and continue using the weapon without penalty.[/quote]



ME...
Well I remember ender saying once durability is implemented if you wore equipment that your stats did not meet it would deteriorate at a much faster speed. I'm pretty sure its intentional even though presently you get no penalty for doing it.

hey cookie

I custom wrote the training report script. I dont really want to release it because I dont want to support it, but if you bmail me, I can send you my code.

A script? I was hoping for excel spreadsheet. :(

I supposed I could modify the one I have not, but :(

I also like it better without durability, unique armors should still take damage though.