miscellaneous

I've been following the forum/IRC chatter about the new energy system and wanted to open up this discussion as a central place for people to express their thoughts, concerns, and suggestions on the new system. More generally, I also wanted to talk a little about the direction the game is headed in and my plans for it. Some ideas to think about:

• Being able to lose energy is new. - With CS in bots2 and pre-March energy in bots4, it was hard/impossible to lose CS/energy, despite that being a major (intended) feature of the system with energy. Now that this has become a reality, it's likely caught some players by surprise as build strength is now much more important. It's being said that it's way too easy to take/lose energy now, that you can take 100k+ energy at a time, but I haven't really seen the evidence to support that because the clan rankings haven't changed much.

• The new energy system hasn't played out yet. - I think we're still really early on in this. If you think back to how it was with the old system, it took several months for dumping to become a mainstream tactic. I think if we give it time, we'll see some novel strategies develop inside the new system. I'm particularly excited for the end of the month to see if things get more hectic than the past (not counting February). Typically when a clan pulls away mid-month, there's no way to catch them short of sabotage.

• What kind of game do we ultimately want? - There has been a lot of experimentation with new ideas in bots4, which has its ups and downs. Some features ended up being pretty clear wins (e.g., trophies and buffs), but others have been more contentious (e.g., energy). Should I continue experimenting or is the player base too small to be doing that? Drastic changes risk alienating existing players before reaching the critical mass where it's okay to lose some that hate the changes.

• Remember the vocal minority. - A forum full of vocal players complaining about something is not necessarily an indicator that something needs to be fixed (nor is it an indicator that it doesn't, of course). The players that are content are far less likely to bother saying so, so you only hear from the ones that are unhappy. I'd probably be better off looking at metrics like 7/30/90-day engagement, but unfortunately I don't currently have something in place to track this. In general I should get better at monitoring feature usage, but for now I mostly try to just chat with players and get a general feel of the game's pulse.

• Be constructive! - Continuing on the last point, I do believe the vocal minority at times be slightly detrimental to the game's health. It's of course fine to express dissenting opinions, but having a little tact goes a long way. Throwing something out there in a negative tone doesn't add to your message and can potentially deter growth if it contributes to an overall negative atmosphere. It's in (all of) our best interests to grow this game, so try your best to at least be constructive in discussions so that it's a pleasant place for all of us.

Anyhoo, let's try to stay on topic and thanks in advance for your input. I look forward to reading your responses!

I can speak only from my own experience. I make shitty bots just by intuition, not with bot calculator or etc help tools. I managed to be in top 100 with earlier energy system, but now i cant. Maybe someone else are facing same problems. This new system boosts those who use stars to get prima equipment and uses bot calculator to find best builds. Now these attack only few times and wins xxxx energy.

Ok, this sounds like i want my "protection" back, but i dont want to play with calculators and find my best build, i just want to play bots.

-Rames-

To be perfectly honest, people don't want to have their bot attacked. Logging in to see you are the victim of 200 attacks that crushes your ratio isn't a fun experience. I would advocate that most people are not interested in a pvp experience and would rather have a pve type.

The 'novel strategy' that you will see will be people creating showroom/workshop freaked bots and exclusively dumping on them.

I am okay with game experimentation if you are relatively sure of the outcome and the players have some sort of idea what is coming. Players aren't buying/selling bots right now because there is too many questions and not enough answers. I personally think fun, obvious things should take precedence before new stuff. Like tournaments, unlimited attack days, surprise buffs, more trophies, new gear(my opinion the best way to better balance current builds).

This is just my 2 cents at 3am. I'll think about it more and maybe post again.

In relation to the energy system; i personally don't mind it, i like the fact that there is some risk involved (in most cases), though it definitely needs some tweaks :P

I like change, but it feels like some have been detrimental to the growth of the game. The newest Energy system in particular puts new players at a severe disadvantage. It's pretty discouraging to join a clan and gain 5-6k energy, then logging on the next day to have it all drained in just a few attacks. Considering this is a brand new system to try out and there is so little competition at the moment is a little troubling.

I realise the new energy system is still that, new, but most of us by now have predicted how this month is going to play out, with millions and millions of energy being dumped at the end. I mean, creating a ton of low level bots might be fun to some people, but it's definitely not for me. I also don't think it's good that the first 27 days of the month are worthless, and everything will be decided in the last few.

I'm also in agreement with Draoi, people just don't like logging on to a lot of attacks, particularly in this new system where it doesn't matter how many you win, your energy can still be stolen.

Being able to lose energy is new.

people don't want to have their bot attacked.

Well, personally I don't see the ability to gain/lose large amounts of energy as a huge problem, it might even enhance the gameplay and make it less predictable who's going to win at the end of the month.

My only concern is the ability to (or rather lack of same) generate energy (EPH) as i think there should be some sort of minimum opposed to how it is now (or at least make it so a halfhearted, just playing for fun build, like my own is still able to generate energy). As i see it 0 EPH should be reserved for bots with less than 0.1 fight ratio.

Opposed to many other players i like having my bot attacked (or at least this one, since this is just a lvl'ing bot) and being able to generate energy is one of the criterias for this to happen since my ratio isn't that high.

Imo just go back to the cs system, it doesn't seem to be as exploitable as the energy, I don't really care either way this is just what I have witnessed.

I think the end of this month will tell it all. If there is a large exchange in energy the last few days and everything gets changed, or maybe only the top clans lash out at eachother and the rest is left alone (probably not!). Bots might lose some players as thier clan crushes from top 10 down to the bottom due to some other clan rapeing them to bits the last day of the month, destroying what they have worked the entire month to gain. I think the new system is pretty fun and challengeing. But also unfair, as the clan with the most active and agressive players will take the first place at the end of the month, the rest of the month doesn't matter at all.

I'm a bit worried about my clan, hopefully we will be the once doing the crushing, and not the other way around.

I think being able to lose energy is ok, but it has put a lot of emphasis on having perfect/freaked bots. To that end, I agree that the system is discouraging to new players especially given the ability to steal large amounts of energy quickly. I've said it before, but I think real wars would be much more interesting if players had other avenues of improving their bots besides regular showroom gear. That's another topic I suppose, but the way things are currently, new players can't contribute much unless they're given a perfect build by an established player.

The reason there haven't been many changes to the rankings is because no one is scoring much atm. When you can lose 100k+ in a day, there isn't much reason to score until the end of the month, when no one can take energy away from you. A cap on xE would help prevent the massive changes in energy that discourage players from scoring during the month.

Also, there must be some sort of change to the EPH formula. If you check the level 20-23 pages right now you will see hundreds of bots generating huge amounts of energy to be dumped at the end of the month. I won't lie, some of those are mine, but I still don't think it makes sense to have this as the major approach to energy scoring. The issue could be fixed by making level a bigger contributor to EPH than ratio. The downside is that new players will get shafted even more, but if they're actively scoring I guess that would allow them to still retain a decent EPH.

Overall I think the new system has good intentions, but it needs some work before we see any meaningful clan competitions.

The issue could be fixed by making level a bigger contributor to EPH than ratio.

+1. The decency of the bot's build is already influenced by the "energy offset" aspect of the EPH formula. You have a shitty bot, you don't get to keep your energy. Making ratio the major factor doesn't make sense. Level makes more sense.

The theory is (or at least I presume is) that low ratio bots = whores, which shouldn't generate much energy for real war purposes. The problem though is the opposite doesn't always apply - you can have a rubbish bot and still maintain a decent ratio if no one attacks you.

myriad, but if you have rubbish bot, decent ratio, then you gain energy, so people will attack you, and crush that ratio you got, so in reality there wont be many rubbish bots with good ratio left.

TBH, my ratio went from 50.1 to 17.55 in 12 days :-D

also wiggin, im happy with system.

things that should be fixed are: EPH should never hit 0, and definitely not on lvl 130+ bots, and xE would be better with maximum of 5. 18 is just crazy

I don't think players should be punished for not having their bot freaked to the absolute max. I had Blackrazors with fairly high CON at lvl 50, and lost 100k in 12 hours.

I think people may lose motivation when they lose all of their energy to somebody who's freaked to the max. I don't really feel encouraged to wait 30 days, start over, and attempt to freak my bot all over again.

Due to the nature at which I play this game, my opinions probably won't carry much weight due to the fact that I don't play the game in its intended nature, which by all means is PvP. I much prefer the PvE environment. I like building bots and then just admiring them.

On that note that, I agree with Ender. I think EVERYONE involved with this game needs to speak up and express their dislikes (which is what society only usually expresses) as well as the likes so he can get the complete picture.

I've been an advocate for the removal of freaked bots since I learned of them. Not because they bring a new aspect to the game, which they do, but because they bring an unwanted aspect to the game. Now with the changes that have been presented to us for this month with the energy system revamp, though I can only assume, it'll put more emphasis on the fact that if you don't max freak your bot, you're most likely going to lose your energy.

I understand the strongest should win, but I also believe that gear shouldn't be utilized period if the player doesn't have the stats for it.

i like the way it is now makes it more of a mystery to who is going to win the month

before this people attacked whores which was boring if you made the best whore clan then you would win every month as eternal showed with all there dumping that they could do

you only had to make a strong bot vs your whores which was shit but now you need to make a strong bot to compete against others which makes the game more competitive

@ Number2: I was referring to level 20 bots. Even if you stick crabs on, it could still be weeks before someone attacks your bot. Combine that with the fact that you can make a level 20 bot in about 3 minutes and you have a winning combination.

@ Nos: Freaked is the new perfect. Even if freaked builds were removed/made obsolete, there would still be emphasis on perfect bots with this real wars system. The only reason I can see you being against freaked bots is on principle, which is fine, but I don't see how that's relevant to the new system. Imo the worst thing to do would be to revert to real wars with no freaked bots. Everyone would have the same build, which would make things outrageously boring.

Most of the talking points here about the current state of the game and what should/may lie ahead in its future have actually already been tried or at least the idea has been around since bots2. Here are my thoughts on said ideas:

The PvP vs PvE debate: We did set up an informal real wars in bots2 that was separate from the main PvE wars. What was found out was that people were not highly interested in making a ton of good bots but would rather spend their days attacking whores and/or leveling. Yes freaking has changed this perspective and so has clan size but the main fact is there: only a few people wanted to participate.

Current energy system. Only advice I have is to turn down the energy multipliers a bit. Hundreds of energy per attack is kinda ridiculous. Make a person work for that 100k I say!

Now as for what I suggest, is at its heart simple: make the game entertaining again. People used to play bots2 for hours upon hours on end, making whores or good bots for the clans they were in or bots for tournaments or actually csing. There was something called variety. Now you either level for no purpose other than that you know you GAINED a level, which to me is now better than gaining a single point of energy. Because at the end of the day somebody can take your 2 minute-8 hours-24 hours of work in under an hour. The problem is that people want a return for time invested. Everything in our lives is pretty much based on that other than friendships or loyalty.

So my suggestion are to a)make an energy system that people will at least have something to show for at the end of the day and b) experiment with things that will be great timewasters. Time wasters are the things people love. Give people a million things to do and they will try and do them all. Make them do one thing over and over again and they'll tell you to screw off because its too much like work. Aka make a game that noobs can play inside a hardcore game and you will continue to grow forever and ever lol.

I'd like to know the exact formulas as they currently stand for energy exchange and regeneration.

I think there needs to be a better way to determine the amount of energy exchanged, actually fight based. There have been fights where I barely squeak out a victory against a very good opponent but I get 3 energy for my efforts because of the way energy exchange is currently set. Likewise, I can log on one of my dumpers and quickly unload thousands of energy onto Shoegazer with absolutely no concern about the outcome of the battles.

@Shoegazer For a win, you gain a set amount of energy based on xE. The higher the xE multiplier the more energy you gain. For a loss against the same bot, you lose half that amount. So if you win 1/3 fights against a bot, you'll net close to 0. There are minor cases where you can win 23 and lose 11 twice and profit 1 energy.

@ Nos: Freaked is the new perfect. Even if freaked builds were removed/made obsolete, there would still be emphasis on perfect bots with this real wars system. The only reason I can see you being against freaked bots is on principle, which is fine, but I don't see how that's relevant to the new system. Imo the worst thing to do would be to revert to real wars with no freaked bots. Everyone would have the same build, which would make things outrageously boring.

I agree, but with the new system it's going to force everyone to make their bots freaked, which in turn only turns freaked bots into perfect builds and so called perfect builds obsolete. I don't think allowing freaked builds is the answer. I think a system that has multiple different scenarios, in this case multiple different "optimal" builds for any given level, would be a better solution. This way you might have a "perfect" strength bot but against a "perfect balanced" or "perfect" dex bot you would only come out even, thus putting even more emphasis on being active.

Or better yet, a rock-paper-scissors oriented equipment list, that alternates every ten levels or so. (Balanced loses to STR at 80, breaks even at 90, wins at 100) Not easy to do with simple number tweaking though, we'd need a total revamp, including basic game formulae, and possibly the battle system itself.

I guess the problem is that perfect builds are too easy to make. Freaked builds are too easy to make. Anyone can make them, thus, everyone who wants to compete and puts in the time and effort (provided they have a bit of common sense, or at least know someone who has builds) eventually ends up with a perfect freaked bot.

And lest anyone come up with the "you need stars to freak" argument again, you are missing the point. It is too easy to get the "best" equipment for your level. Most games require a shitload of questing/raiding/farming/grinding to get your so called "perfect equips." Here, anyone with stars can do it, or anyone who has the patience to camp, which isn't too hard. Statistically speaking, most if not all pieces of equipment in the showroom will appear at least once a day, and many will appear multiple times. Compare that to pieces of equipment that have 0.2% dropchance from weekly spawning bosses. Bots4 players have it easy. Equipment is easy, perfect equipment is taken for granted. I say break the system, make people work for their armors/weapons.

If good armors, weapons and shields were controlled (not orderable, available as quest rewards, convertible from trophy points, etc.) botbuilding would not be so simple, and we'd see non-perfect bots fighting non-perfect bots, and it would actually be Real Wars. Which actually sounds kind of exciting.

Maybe we could introduce a series of true unique armors? Like semi-customizable items only dropped as special rewards from "quests" or as reward for winning a tournament.

Maybe we could introduce a series of true unique armors? Like semi-customizable items only dropped as special rewards from "quests" or as reward for winning a tournament.

Second! sounds like a good idea, the trophies work as reward but some nice gear would work even better.. Maybe uniqe weapons?

Current energy system. Only advice I have is to turn down the energy multipliers a bit. Hundreds of energy per attack is kinda ridiculous. Make a person work for that 100k I say!

Second! Would make this energy system really great I think, like the good old days when you got like 2CS per fight, but this time we steal them from eachother!

I was going to post something about perfect builds being too easy to make, but neps said pretty much what I was thinking. The only problem with changing the battle system is that it requires a lot of coding and subsequent balancing, and tbh I don't know if Ender is able to provide that these days. I would definitely love to see some sort of special gear/quests etc though; I think it would really bring a breath of fresh air to the game.

I find it a bit silly that I'm top 50 when I havent been online all month, although I suppose that's more other peoples fault for not attacking me.

Champ, I would've attacked you with my lvl104 bots and transferred the energy to this bot. Realized that there is no point in doing it early in the month since your eph will drop and you will not score or go NC. So I will end up stealing less energy if attacking too early in the month.

On another note, I only scored for 3 days and hadn't logged in for a week. My eph dropped below 300 and then started increasing again on its own. Only increases by 2/3 per every couple of hours. Seems quite strange since I've been losing a little energy in offline attacks.

wouln't most of the issues be solved if we were only allowed to have 1 bot? Too bad we cant simply roll back the option of having multiple bots...

Yeah. I'd be devastated.

So some plyers like freaking and someones think that is not good thing at all. So mayby limit freaking little bit. Things like you can freak your bot max 1 point per 10 levels. Meaning that like on 54 lvl you can use items that you actually lack of max 5 points in str and/or dex. In 123 lvl you would have 12 those "freaking points". And mayby not allow freaking at all below 50 lvl, so new people would not suffer it right away, because they where still learning the game. And also when you are swapping gear in showroom, you could actually be more freaked that your level would allow, but you needed to be in your max limit if you wanted to fight or train. And if you logged of with more than allowed freak points used, you would simply lose all fights if you where attacked or you couldn't use all items in fight. This would still give people more choises to gear up bots in different way (mayby?)

There is also talking about you dont need stars to freak. Of course you dont "need", but have it ago to build freak bot with just only 1 stash space and play like 2 hours per day. And then look how many days it would take you to make that decent freaked bot. Imho star holders benefit more in stash space than in ordering. So mayby give all bots +2 extra space? or mayby give 1 in some level, lets say 35 (again thinking about new players here, who might start to think nothing anymore happens after 20). And then mayby 1 more after ever 100 you get on bot.

Do people enjoy playing pve in pvp game ? This comes in mind when players talk about energy. Everyone just wants to hoard lots of energy with no fear losing it all. They say they would like real wars and good competion between clans, but they only wanna get more and dont wanna lose any. And when someone tries fight for energy with not so great bot, some laugh and say make better bot. But mayby its good to look on other side too, since when some comes after you with better bot and you lose I really do hope people dont whine about that (no matter if you are new player or hc player) even if you lose crap loads of energy. I mean you can do that some thing to person who attacked you, right ? Adapt to chances, ring any bells ? I dont wanna point any fingers or make any bad blood here, but some times that is just how I feel things go around here.

But lets say current energy system is fine, expect you can lose way too much energy in so short time. One option would be make energy incurance when you logout. When you logout you can pay x about energy and then you can lose lets say like 30 energy per lose. You could still lose all your energy if you get attacked and lose enough time, but you wouldn't lose it so fast. But in every thing have it other side, this might cause more people to online players etc. But hey, mayby that would be kinda fun see loads of people being "dickheads" in same time against each other ;) If someone things why not make it work like kudos thing, nope, since could abuse it some many ways easily to get totally free energy.

If people dont like incurance system, then mayby option that you allow you to be hc bot or wuss bot. Long story short, in wuss bot you would get and lose energy same way as it was before and hc would be what it is now. Then there would be some issues thing, what amount energy is transfered when hc attack wuss and wins or loses and other way round....

I just end my rant here and move on smiling with my brand new trophy :)

I find this new 'real wars' system to be more oriented towards freaked and the best builds. Newbies will have an even steeper curve joining this game and this may lead to the demise of bots4. The current lack of documentation puts newbies at a severe disadvantage and tossing them into a clan battlefield may further demoralize them. I believe adding newbie guides may alleviate this issue.

In terms of 'real wars' and all this change involved with it. It's part of the game and the new balance changes that Ender has implemented. I can accept that, but change is not always easily accepted by a community. I think that adding additional incentives to adapt and change over to this new energy system will further encourage the older players and newer players to participate in it. Maybe making a limited time promotion for first 3 months, top 10 clans get plats, top 25 clans get golds, top 100 clans get silver, top 1000 clans get bronze. Or maybe making the new buffs free for once a week for 3 months. These incentives will help change the community over to the new system and once they have adapted it, you can remove the extra incentives as the community has adapted the system.

So far in this month in particular, I feel like we have been consistently under performing on the avg number of players on throughout the day. (I may be wrong, because I do sleep and hundreds of bots player may be logging in when I log off.)

I may be wrong, because I do sleep and hundreds of bots player may be logging in when I log off.

Just like the Illuminati ordered, along with starting WWI and doing 9/11. I see you're finally figuring stuff out!

Thanks for your responses everyone, this has been good to read. It sounds like people are concerned about how easy it is to take large amounts of energy. That's something I could look into, but I'm still not really seeing much fluctuation in the rankings, which you'd expect to happen if this were really the case. I think I may wait until the end of the month to see if the predicted mass changes happen. After that we can look at bringing down the xE cap.

A part of this too may be that bots2 (and bots4 until now) was largely a PvEish game; you could always fight other players, but you never really fought "real" players. It was uncommon then to logon to your main bot and find you'd actually been attacked and had something you'd worked on lost/taken. I imagine it indeed would be quite demoralizing to find all that progress you made in that long grind session the day before was now useless. It may be necessary to add something along the lines of PvE more involved than training bots as a replacement for what people did before. Which leads me to...

If good armors, weapons and shields were controlled (not orderable, available as quest rewards, convertible from trophy points, etc.) botbuilding would not be so simple, and we'd see non-perfect bots fighting non-perfect bots, and it would actually be Real Wars. Which actually sounds kind of exciting.

I think more build differentiation is a really neat direction to take the game, and honestly sort of a necessity if it's going to have "real wars". I still really like the idea of slightly randomized equipment and think that could open up huge opportunities for fun new ways to play the game. For former D2 players, think about lusting after that perfect 30% MF Nagelring. Having that sort of stuff in bots4 would allow for build differentiation, a real economy/item trading, and so much more.

There would obviously be a lot of details to work out with this system. Going back to my previous comment about offering another PvE option, this could come through some sort of augmented training bot system where you're rewarded for redundant clicking (which is basically what the clan race was until now). This in turn would give you a slight edge in the clan race, so you wouldn't have that awful feeling of having everything taken if you lose all your energy. And of course we'd have to figure out how to factor this in with stars. I have to honor those purchases and still provide a significant but not overpowering benefit for having them.

Anyway, in the meantime I think I need to focus on finishing core/easy features and promoting the game. The latter especially is a long-term effort, so I think it'd be best to start now and try to build up a bit and reach that critical mass where we can grow organicly. Doesn't make sense to crank out features for awhile only to realize the playerbase has dwindled down to nothing, so I'm going to make that a priority over the coming weeks.

perfect 30% MF Nagelring.

A must-have if you want to get that coveted +20 CON Copper Soul!

Some sort of projection when stuff is coming out so players can plan would be nice but I know that will be a bitch for the one doing the projecting. :\

Umm I use SOJ's, I'll just fill my inventory with small mf charms.

Anyway, my experience with the new system hasn't been too great. If the clan/energy system was intended to become more like real wars, I'd say it's doing pretty well. Not great, but good.

Personally I dislike it because energy used to be an extra incentive to gain wins, and I liked being able to get both at once. Now you have the choice of attacking a bot with lots of energy (and most likely losing a good # of fights) or getting a rape limit worth of wins from a bot that likely has little energy. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but that's what's keeping me from playing lately.

And perhaps part of it is being able to have energy stolen from me so swiftly. I haven't been targeted too much, but I would say I'm a bit afraid to see the outcome if I were to gain a lot of energy. Although I'm sure once we get to the end of the month we'll see exactly how much people are willing to do to get energy. Perhaps opinions may change when we get to that point.

The simple truth is that most of the people in this game are addicted to numbers... so give us more things with numbers to get/grow/optimize!

Might be "random" trophies for "exactly 1000 dmg afflicted in a fight" or "1337 hits done in a day" etc.

Neps would love this for example...

How about splitting peoples energy into two parts. Let only half of a persons energy be stealable. So if you gain energy from others or by EPH regen then half goes into pool X and the other half into pool Y. The total energy a person will have is X+Y and can be shown like that in the fight page/HOF/profile etc. Let energy only be able to be stolen from pool Y.

This way by scoring you always gain something every day as pool X will always be growing. Pool Y can be stolen completely however just the way it is now.

This will also reduce the effectiveness of dumpers as only half their energy gained can ever be dumped.

I think this would only work if X and Y are recalculated/redistributed every day, otherwise you would be able to build up X by using dumpers to shuffle energy back and forth and there by it would be like an energy bank.

Rather than splitting energy into two separate pools, you could place a cap on the amount able to be stolen in a 24 hour period.

Because if you consider the "rape limit" which was placed to reduce whoring, and these days very few people actually take a rape to the limit considering most peoples energy can be stolen before it's reached. So perhaps reducing the rape limit to reduce the amount of energy that can be stolen or placing a cap on it.

That would take longer to get the fight trophies though unfortunately.

The goal is to balance the system, not allow for it to be exploited or otherwise go unaltered if it has issues, just because it would take longer to get certain trophies. It would hinder you from getting them, so I don't see an issue.

A cap on the energy you can steal doesn't sound too bad, as long as it's a reasonable number. But please oh please don't suggest lowering the attack limit lol.

I don't give a fuck ese

Do you wear a mask and a tight little spandex dress to work DS?

I wish that score couldn't be taken away and you could gain score from getting wins and levels. I have no idea how to balance that, but that is how I see it.

-2 cents

Im a full time baker with home and social commitments. I'm regularly offline for 24 to 72 hours at a time. My bot was not freaked but optimum for its level and I was finding the few hours I had available and put into the game was negated by the time I was able to return. I now have no interest in competing for energy and am unable to contribute to my clan. PvP should have physical input not purely mathematic. The only example I can use is WoW I was always behind in the gear with that but i'd still beat people with the latest seasons gear because I played my class well. I had built this bot well and its energy was taken with minimal difficulty /frustrated.

I havent read all of the above posts, I would just like to add that I really appreciate what wiggins trying to do but still don't like it.

~Angelo

The system needs to be more balanced between Str, Dex and Bal builds at all levels to make the game more interesting... there needs to be a weapon on either path that can compete/counter weapons on each other path, as we stand there is only a limited amount of real choices you can make when determining a build, and those choices are mainly limited to which level you want your bot to be.

I have never been a fan of real wars & tbh a vast majority of players were not either. This is quite obviously still true as no matter what changes wiggin makes players choose the easiest route to gather energy.

I liked the grind of cs & yes I recognise there were many issues with that system. However there was something satisfying in setting yourself a target & watching your cs slowly grow. I do not like losing energy full stop, but particularly at the rate you do now. There is nothing more disheartening than logging on & seeing the energy you worked hard to harvest dropped by 10s of thousands.

This particular energy harvesting change has severely affected the game. If you look at the online list at almost any time there will be no more than 3 bots actually fighting. Presumably the dumpers are quietly building energy ready for the month end dump off :|

You quite often wiggin mention that the clan positions have not changed & that there is plenty of energy out there. Well if nobody is really playing apart from an occasional dump that will be the case.

As an aside to energy I'd also like to say that buffs are way overpowered & represent too much of an advantage.

I think now is as good a time as any to revive this thread.

Since bots4 went live, we have seen the energy system go through different stages. Initially it was the basic 20 EPH for all bots regardless of level, wins or ratio, aimed at allowing new players to contribute and have a chance at competing for the top clan spots without needing too much preparation in the way of making dumpers or whores. Then in March, variable EPH was introduced, because some players were miffed that their high levels/wins weren't being rewarded, and to discourage dumping. Now we have reverted back to the old system basically, of min 20 EPH with a max EPH of 60.

I think it might be a good idea if you (Ender) stated somewhere exactly what your long-term goals or plans for the game are. Because these changes you have made to the energy system are not minor changes, they are MASSIVE changes. To make a massive change and then change your mind 8 months later and revert back to the old system is just ridiculous imo.

Bots will only be able to score at about 1/4 the rate that they used to be able to score at with the capless EPH system, so any new players will find it much more difficult to break into the top 10 overall energy standings. Not to mention all the players that worked hard making dumpers and getting wins/levels on their mains who have now had their efforts diminished somewhat with cap on EPH.

The backflip you have made with the energy system doesn't really give me the impression you know exactly how you want the game to progress in the future. If you are not sure what direction you want to take the game in, then it might be a good idea to avoid making any major changes for the time being.

I think it might be a good idea if you (Ender) stated somewhere exactly what your long-term goals or plans for the game are.

I've always been pretty vocal about the direction I intend to take the game. I've been soliciting ideas for the past week after very clearly outlining the two things I consider to be problems in this game. How to solve those problems is more up in the air, but I think at this point we've settled on the high-level ideas of what needs to be done.

Because these changes you have made to the energy system are not minor changes, they are MASSIVE changes. To make a massive change and then change your mind 8 months later and revert back to the old system is just ridiculous imo.

Uncapped variable EPH was a failed experiment, so I see this as admitting to and correcting a mistake.

Bots will only be able to score at about 1/4 the rate that they used to be able to score at with the capless EPH system, so any new players will find it much more difficult to break into the top 10 overall energy standings.

I'm not following the logic of "less overall energy" => "harder for new players to score". There's less energy for everyone. Further, everyone is on a level playing field now. The removal of huge idle energy is going to make it easier to new players to score.

Not to mention all the players that worked hard making dumpers and getting wins/levels on their mains who have now had their efforts diminished somewhat with cap on EPH.

Change is unfortunately a part of any online game that evolves and grows, so what worked in the old system won't necessarily work in the new system. It's not my long-term vision for the game to rely so heavily on effort from previous months. I think it should matter, but not to the point where existing players have a stranglehold on the top ranks because of idle EPH.

The backflip you have made with the energy system doesn't really give me the impression you know exactly how you want the game to progress in the future. If you are not sure what direction you want to take the game in, then it might be a good idea to avoid making any major changes for the time being.

I think you're too heavily biased to really see what's going on. 95% of your energy in October came from idle EPH and this put you in 17th place overall, so of course you don't like these changes. I get that it took effort to get your bot where it's at, but you should have to put effort in during month X to rank well in month X.

i really like the way clans ranked 12-20 all have exactly 30,000 monthly energy, cuz thats what 20 x 60 is an hour so far.

which on the plus side means even noob teams should be able to out-score idle dumper clans

I've always been pretty vocal about the direction I intend to take the game. I've been soliciting ideas for the past week after very clearly outlining the two things I consider to be problems in this game. How to solve those problems is more up in the air, but I think at this point we've settled on the high-level ideas of what needs to be done.

The problem I have with this, no offense to you considering it is YOUR game, but although you ask for our input it doesn't seem to sway you from your end objective and the ideas you have, regardless if the majority of your active player base disagrees with them.

You do what you want, when you want, at your discretion and disregard our complaints on the basis that we're complaining because we simply don't like change. I agree the system needs changing but to alter the "status quo" as it was so abruptly and so massively is a huge thing to assume the majority of us is just going to be simply okay with it.

Uncapped variable EPH was a failed experiment, so I see this as admitting to and correcting a mistake.

I agree, to some degree, that Uncapped variable EPH is a flawed system. I don't agree however that variable EPH is a failure. I think that people should be rewarded for the efforts they put into their bots and see those efforts rewarded with a larger EPH. For example, 2 bots at level 130 shouldn't have the same EPH if one has 150k wins and one has 150 wins, and because of your changes they do. clan score might have been a flawed system, but at least it rewarded clan based on activity and gave clans reason to have higher level bots with in them. I think something along the lines of clan score, where there isn't a finite amount to gain but you only gain if your actually active would be better than the system we currently have.

Change is unfortunately a part of any online game that evolves and grows, so what worked in the old system won't necessarily work in the new system. It's not my long-term vision for the game to rely so heavily on effort from previous months. I think it should matter, but not to the point where existing players have a stranglehold on the top ranks because of idle EPH.

Change isn't bad, but drastic change that completely alters the over all game is why people leave. You risk alienating your small player base because of these drastic changes. I understand you have a duty to this game and to work out what you deem failures, but at what cost? Do you think it would be beneficial to you if you lost the entire current player base you have because the game you based this one off of has no resemblance within yours anymore. At the risk of sounding like, well myself, I think this is what you're doing. You're causing the majority of your active player base to slowly disintegrate due the drastic changes you keep imposing on us.

I think you're too heavily biased to really see what's going on. 95% of your energy in October came from idle EPH and this put you in 17th place overall, so of course you don't like these changes. I get that it took effort to get your bot where it's at, but you should have to put effort in during month X to rank well in month X.

Of course he's biased. As is most of us who invest a lot of time and effort into this game and think we should have more merit in your decisions when it comes to altering the game play.

I think with idle, people shouldn't gain. The system needs to be redone. Where you only gain if you're active. This would require energy to vanish and/or something else introduced in it's place. Or rather a different system as to the way energy is "created" needs to be thought up. As I stated, clan score as a whole had a lot of issues, but the one thing it did have was you only gained if you where attacking or attacked. You didn't gain from just sitting, doing nothing. I think that needs to be the focus of your "energy system" where people only gain if they are active and the finite system you have now needs to go away.

I think I was a bit too aggressive in my previous post, which may have given you the impression that I am upset simply because I have a high level bot and I obviously benefited a lot from the non-capped EPH system. I'm more frustrated because you have made such big changes to the game and then gone and changed your mind and reverted back to the old system.

I don't get any satisfaction out of you admitting that changing to variable EPH was a mistake, but what I am trying to do is get you to think about why you made that mistake and how to avoid making such mistakes in the future. What were your goals with the variable EPH system? Have your goals changed with your decision to revert back to the old system? That's what I really want to know. Do you really have the same vision for the game that you have always had despite all these changes, or are you just changing your opinions and implementing changes based on what a handful of players are complaining about at any particular moment?

Perhaps I'm asking some difficult questions, but I hope you understand where I'm coming from in my questioning of your long-term goals for the game after reversing several big changes to the energy system.

What if you only gain energy if you have been active in the past 24 hours?

What if you only gain energy if you have been active in the past 24 hours?

Auto-refresh scripts.

For the record, I do think that by reverting back to the old system, you have probably made the right choice as far as the long-term future of the game is concerned. Now that less-experienced players are able to compete better with the top players, there is a better chance of new players sticking around instead of quitting. In saying that I still think the change was too abrupt though. Even though you say you gave us a week's notice, that isn't enough time to get decent feedback from the community, and certainly not enough time to give clans the chance to prepare for the changes. Perhaps that was your intention though.

Giving new players a good chance to compete is probably the only good justification for these changes. But honestly, how many new players do we get? There should be more focus on how to get more players rather than changing the game for players we don't even have yet.

Anyway, in the meantime I think I need to focus on finishing core/easy features and promoting the game. The latter especially is a long-term effort, so I think it'd be best to start now and try to build up a bit and reach that critical mass where we can grow organicly. Doesn't make sense to crank out features for awhile only to realize the playerbase has dwindled down to nothing, so I'm going to make that a priority over the coming weeks.

Unfortunately this didn't/doesn't seem to be the case at all. I wish you still had this mindset.