suggestions

It's been discussed a few times, but it's wild that the all time energy rankings is mostly just 2 clans that have existed for a long time with no effort beyond filling treasury. Gives some crazy examples where bots have 778 wins but would need 150k+ wins with good buffs to overtake now.

It would be better if those ranks were determined based on energy actively gained rather than generated. If a bot ends the month with a 1.00 energy ratio, they wouldn't be contributing to their total energy on that page, if they end with a 2.00 energy ratio, only half of it would contribute. Not sure on what exactly is stored in the database so unsure how doable this would be.

It would encourage moving clans a little more often, and give those spots and trophies to bots that actually worked for them.

A solid suggestion. As the hourly energy for the month is currently fairly negligible, I think removing it from the active status of the HoF would be a very nice addition. I had 20 odd bots in Top 100 before my clan folded because of treasury, and I agree that was completely ridiculous.

You know Fish you could mention me in the idea since I mentioned it in the other thread :P Like "Thanks for the idea Zal" haha.

Not bad ideas overall though. I think maybe having a bot log in once per month or two to qualify it for gaining trophies/trophy points would be a good idea too. In the case of bots that haven't logged in for near 5 years to a decade+ and have else than say, 20k wins then they should just be thrown out/disqualified of the top 100 altogether. That way more active players could have spots. The reason I say 20k wins (though it should probably be closer to 100k) is because I'm sure at the time when they got those wins that it would've got them to top 100 or so with a few months inactivity but now with them being gone forever it doesn't make sense to have them there. Perhaps all bots with a certain <wins should be thrown out altogether though. Like say, this bot, Boost. He's only been offline for a year or so but it's an insult that he only has 967 wins yet 5.2 million energy :/

Hey if we are giving credit for the idea, then credit goes to me 8 years ago.

I don't think we need to add anything more complicated to qualify, I don't mind some old leveller still getting top level wins for being idle - he is still the top level after all this time and has put more effort in than those below, energy is different to level/wins/etc as you get some "for free" every month.

I think just removing energy generated hourly solves this pretty cleanly, anything else just overcomplicates it.

Everything is always about you Fish, jeez -_-

The hourly thing is probably too complicated to implement though. At that point we may as well just change the entire energy system. I was just thinking of simple ways that wouldn't annoy too many people.

But then I lose my top 100 energy ranking :(

It's just some backend calculations really, I don't think its very complicated at all assuming Ender has the data available. People wouldn't notice anything except different bots being in the energy HoF

Another idea would maybe be only have the top 100 reflect bots that have been active in the last year or maybe make a separate top 100 active scorers list or something and just have the other one as a historical list with no trophy points awarded.

To add a bit, Fish's post pretty much nailed whatever thoughts I had

It would be better if those ranks were determined based on energy actively gained rather than generated. If a bot ends the month with a 1.00 energy ratio, they wouldn't be contributing to their total energy on that page, if they end with a 2.00 energy ratio, only half of it would contribute. Not sure on what exactly is stored in the database so unsure how doable this would be.

Yeah, if Ender logs earned (idling) energy vs obtained (fighting) energy, the HoF could exclude energy gained from idling and only show obtained energy, so say a bot like mine would have maybe like

Total: 3,781,378 Actual: 1,378

Meaning I basically earned 3.78 mil energy just by existing, and only 1378 from actually fighting other bots, which would be what contributes to the HoF

I'm not sure if activity would be enough, it'd certainly remove many bots like the initial one posted where it's been offline for 11+ years, but it would mean I still show up even though I don't really do much

I think we have very different goals with this change Zal, I don't want to punish anyone who played a long time ago or something, its supposed to be a hall of fame, not "who played a lot in this arbitrary period I want to value".

Chriseps isn't really active anymore, but is the biggest scorer on a single bot the games ever seen, he has scored the most energy in the games history, so should be at the top of the hall of fame for energy rightfully. If someone wants to knock him off his perch, they better put as much time in as he did to get there, not just wait for him to go idle for a year.

My only problem is with free energy being handed out that counts towards the HoF, with "time in a clan" being more important than "effort put in for a clan". I'm fairly sure Ender already has the data (as its used for our EPH ratios) so it should be doable.

hey guys i know this is the wrong thread but can anyone point me in the direction of a discord for this game? im a new player

I'm sure it's logged/saved considering we can view energy gains within the fight history itself already. Also agreed on Fish's last sentiments there, we already have monthly energy for the currently active.

Just coming up with different ideas is all.

Just thinking that I'm pretty sure energy total right now is just that, total energy. I'm 90% sure we don't have a metric for active or idle energy gained. It probably could be seen by looking at each month a bot was in a clan but that's too much manual work. If we did have this metric I'm pretty sure we would've been using it for the past 10 years is all. The question is if it's possible to code something that looks at prior months now vs. only present things or going forward.

Also, if a dumper gives the energy to a bot, then that shouldn't count towards the total gains either..hmmm

Because the energy is being given, rather than being gained by the scoring bot itself, so is it considered active scoring for that bot?

This is the type of thing that I wish Ender would be online to discuss with lol. We don't have enough information to really see what's doable and what's not.

Why would that not count? What if someone with a regular bot tries attacking you and loses energy to you because they're shit at the game, should that not get counted either, but at the same time hitting min con bots with broken gear that are above your level does?

Also like I mentioned above, energy gains are already shown in fight history so it is obviously stored to some capacity. The only question is for how far back.

It looks like the data should already be there

As an example, this random month had Chriseps on 1,807,634 energy with an EPH ratio of 40.49.

1807634 divided by 40.49 is 44643. This is very close to how much he would have gained by generating 60 every hour for a 31 day month (31*60*24 = 44640, an extra 3 energy, but that's just a rounding error which Ender could avoid).

Similarly, for Sir Chimpus the same month, he got 426,577 energy with a ratio of 11.7, so I can see that 36,459 of it was generated (lower than Chriseps because he didn't hit 60 EHP because he was a low level), with the rest being actively earned

It even works when people intentionally don't enable hourly energy generation to get inflated EPH ratios, like this month Youngster Joey got 426,057 energy, divided by his ratio of 15216.32 gives us 28.0000. I presume he had energy generation turned off except for the first hour of being in his clan, where he generated 28 energy once. So 426029 of his energy would contribute to the HoF, with the 28 generated being excluded.

There is a time period where it isn't as simple as that. The EPH had a much higher ceiling, maybe even unlimited in theory. March 2012 - October 2012. That one will be impossible to calculate without Ed's old EPH formula. I don't think retroactively applying the change back that far without fight history logs is likely.

Yeah I was even looking a minute or two ago to try and figure out when all bots on the game had 60 EPH regardless of ratio (even low ratio bots). I mean, I should remember more since it was me and my wh0res that got it changed to 20 EPH lol. At that time period though even level 20 bots with 1 win got 60 EPH though :/ But for the most part it's been 20-60 since then so I'd just start when that started.

Btw i added the idea of basing it off activity since it's also obvious that a bot that hasn't been on in 10 years shouldn't be there anyway regardless of any formula calculations.

Fish commented on that with

Chriseps isn't really active anymore, but is the biggest scorer on a single bot the games ever seen, he has scored the most energy in the games history, so should be at the top of the hall of fame for energy rightfully. If someone wants to knock him off his perch, they better put as much time in as he did to get there, not just wait for him to go idle for a year.

That change would suggest any top stat trophies, wins, level and all the sort also should only count if you are deemed to be active which I think would be silly.

Everything is always about you Zal, jeez -_-

Yeah I did think about that but as far as I can tell it wouldn't really change anything. Only one clan from that time period is still standing (Rapture, of course), and I can't really see any examples that would particularly impact it. I can't remember exactly how the EPH used to work, but at a push some rapture members would lose some energy (e.g. SJ on this month having a 1.03 ratio would lose most of it, when I'm guessing he earned more than .03 of it), but as its a single clan one-off case, those could always be tackled manually. Every other clan was founded after the EPH changes. Besides, Rapture have benefited enough to make up for any unfair changes now :p

I can't see Ender keeping fight logs forever, would be way too many records and it's probably the reason we only get to see the past 7 days. Doubt its doable based on those.

A hall of fame based on recent activity is an oxymoron and a very silly idea.

Good idea my only issue would be having two different total energy numbers which would seem a bit goofy, but it's a much better scenario and less goofy than having a bot being named 40th best scorer of all time when in reality they just joined a clan 13 years ago and didn't really score at all.

Also think keeping total energy when you switch clan would be good for the game, would improve competition and add a few more exciting clan switches.

???? Gpof mentioned it and I just remembered it Fish. Not sure why all the hate on me only. I'm just suggesting things here.

Total energy transferring between clans/staying on a profile forever is fine too. That should've been done 10 years ago too lol.

Would also support at least some remnant of total energy gained being displayed, fairly torn on whether it should be the number on the HoF. If we got "total energy every gained" on a profile or something, it'd be enough for me.

To be clear I'm not saying we add a new column to the HoF of "energy gained", just replace the current total energy number, with energy generated being irrelevant after a month is complete

To be clear I'm not saying we add a new column to the HoF of "energy gained", just replace the current total energy number, with energy generated being irrelevant after a month is complete

For some reason I think it would be a lot less work to just add another column rather than edit the current one at the end of the month and past months even if you are pretty much doing the same calculations for both options. There's a lot of variables too, if you go with one column do you edit clan ranking scores also to be accurate? Start giving out negative energy scores for e.g x0.50 energy and correct all previous months in this way? I'm sure there is something positive about being able to see energy generated passively also.

I guess only Ender knows how much work it would require be interesting to see what he says, I think either would be refreshing and a more accurate representation of the best scorers.

There is a time period where it isn't as simple as that. The EPH had a much higher ceiling, maybe even unlimited in theory. March 2012 - October 2012. That one will be impossible to calculate without Ed's old EPH formula. I don't think retroactively applying the change back that far without fight history logs is likely.

Seems like Fish mentioned, Rapture would be the only ones that would be necessary to really look at this for, and something tells me the majority of them were idling the entire time during that time frame. May - Oct for sure.

And yeah, if we're pulling the "idle" energy off the bots for HoF purposes, I agree just swapping the current one with the new list if the formula/format was changed to reflect this would be the one that makes most sense. Ender could always add "Total Energy" to individual profiles if people want to know that.

If anything is ever done with tracking energy totals throughout a bots life when multiple clans are involved, that time frame would be relevant in conjunction with a change like this for many bots/clans.

Honestly, I think the game should track individual energies independent of clan affiliation... and you should be able to take that with you. As is, game punishes far too harshly for anyone to change clans. And... it's your energy. Why does it belong to a clan at all? Wanna move to a new clan on last day of month? Cool. Why not? Would definitely make clan races more interesting, too... as just that threat would make clan races not feel completely settled less than a week into a month like they normally are.

I was contemplating this last night and to remove any guess work or convoluted and tedious work on Ender's part, a sort of compromise could be moving forward at a month of Ender's choosing we could just "flip a switch" and start using this method from that month forward (with a not in the announcements as that being the start of the new system). That way, eventually the people who have accumulated masses amounts of idle energy would at least cease to continue to gain and ultimately be pushed down by active people.

On the topic of not losing your energy when swapping clans, and the most recent suggestion of what appeared to be not losing your monthly either and taking it to another clan before the month ends, would drastically alter the "level playing field". I'm okay with you losing your monthly if you leave a clan during a month(as well as that total falling off your current clan) and that amount that you lost being added to your "banked total energy for individual purposes" but that would be absurd to be able to take that to another clan mid-month and add it to that clan's monthly energy.

Also, if the Total Energy HoF was indicative of all your bot's energy collected during it's life, that would also drastically alter the landscape of the HoF. It would also make it drastically more difficult for new players to break into the HoF. Not sure how people feel about that, but I guess it's a side effect of a game that runs for 15 years. The top spots are destined to be held by players that have spent a lot of time on the game (or money :D).

I like consistency and things that make sense.

Currently, individuals don't own energy. Clans do.

If we decide individual bots own that energy... then they should own that energy.

Don't think it's even very realistic that you could take that energy with you... but if game did recognize you as owning that energy and it not just completely disappearing from reality without that connection to a clan? Of course you should be able to bring that with you, imo.

And I disagree. I think more in terms of sports. When people leave teams, box scores don't change for past seasons games (or even mid season games). Those player maintain their individual stats for individual records and HoF consideration, but the teams maintain the scores and stats those players had while playing for said team (IE you can't even have those stats without being a part of the team to begin with).

I guess within that same vein, thinking about it, if Ender gives player's back their respective "individual" energy back, the clan's "total energy" should also be reflective of that as well. Since now, if a member leaves a clan not only do they lose their energy, the clan also loses it's total energy for said player also.

I think most people see it as you and would like that sports analogy.

I just feel that actually feels kinda forced and inconsistent with what the game logic would actually be then.

But fully don't expect my opinion to be a popular one here, mind you.

Just kinda saying I don't just agree with general concept... but, personally, I'd even wanna go even further with it.

If you kept monthly energy when changing clans then players would start scoring outside of the big clans and just transfer the bots with high monthly energy in the last few hours of the month if needed, it would be pretty bizarre and the clan rankings until the last day wouldnt hold much weight/truth.

I just suggested keeping total energy so it doesn't hold players back from switching clan for fear of losing years of playtime energy wise.

I'd like to see all bots get 60 EPH, regardless of level or clanless.

I just suggested keeping total energy so it doesn't hold players back from switching clan for fear of losing years of playtime energy wise.

And the suggestion has been brought quite frequently through the years for the same reason. People play this game because they like numbers and stats and strategy.

I agree that there should be a historical aspect saved to a player. In the same respect for players that play their entire careers on a single team, other great players in sports around the world move teams and though the teams keep the "team stats" and accolades like trophies (rightfully so), the player still maintains his individual stats (they just don't get added to the next team he joins). I feel something similar could occur in this game as well.

I'd like to see all bots get 60 EPH, regardless of level or clanless.

If only gained energy through attacks were calculated for HoF and clan race purposes, I could see this becoming more popular and actually feasible as idle energy wouldn't count towards anything.

If you kept monthly energy when changing clans then players would start scoring outside of the big clans and just transfer the bots with high monthly energy in the last few hours of the month if needed, it would be pretty bizarre and the clan rankings until the last day wouldnt hold much weight/truth.

Clans themselves wouldn't benefit from actively trying to have its members operating outside of clans.

But there certainly would be "mercenaries." And... yeah, it'd be different. Again, I wasn't really even trying to suggest it (very much don't think it's worth the energy trying to convince everyone here). I'D be all for it and think the game itself would enjoy it, if implemented.

But very much really only mean to support general sentiment present in thread when I made my comment.

Which is to say: I think such small changes in making it so clans themselves didn't so totally own all our energy would be about the very Least We Could Do.

Lots of different ideas distracting from the original here! I'm glad everyone agrees energy generated hourly shouldn't be part of the HoF and Ender can make that change when he reads this thread! As for the others

• 60 EPH for all bots - This just kinda removes some strategy from making bots to serve your needs. Feels like this is just motivated by you wanting your bots to generate you energy more easily, put the work in that everyone else does! I own a ton of 20 EPH bots so would benefit massively, but those were intentionally left as 20 instead of 60 through decisions I made that help make the game feel like strategy exists and matters. I don't mind if those numbers inflate, but there should be some difference between Myriad and a level 20 0 win bot

• Keeping track of a bots total energy gained ever - Keen on this in some form. I do think it probably just belongs on your bots profile though in the same way reset wins etc can be seen there. Probably doesn't belong on the HoF, even though it would benefit me to be there

• Energy belonging to you, not the clan - Ehh, energy is supposed to be about a clan, think this takes away the importance of "belonging" to a clan and building a community. You would just get people that score for themselves/their stats each month, and maybe sell their movement to a clan at the end of the month for a star. It reminds me of "GDKP runs" on WoW which kinda killed any vibe of social raiding because everyone just did whatever served their coin pouches best at the cost of community, friendship and teams. Tracking lifetime energy gained on a bot is enough to make it feel like the clans don't totally own that energy imo.

I think a simple way of dealing with the total energy thing would be to put it above the energy month in a bot's profile and just have it as a document vs. a a real useful thing. So it'd say something like for say, my MrZal2 bot (just using it because its been in multiple clans):

Malicious Villainous + 1,000,000 something energy
Zal's Castle +865,000 energy

Etc. with each clan it's been in. I could see this being a bother with having EVERY clan added so I'd suggest maybe a top 3 clan energy just in case someone wanted to join 100+ clans to make it ugly lol. Also using the current total energy stuff. I don't think it should really be a moveover thing from clan to clan to bring with you but rather just a historical document of what you did that shows up easier than it currently does (having to go month by month and adding everything manually).

60 EPH for all bots - This just kinda removes some strategy from making bots to serve your needs. Feels like this is just motivated by you wanting your bots to generate you energy more easily, put the work in that everyone else does

First of all, I am not a scorer, second of all.. my bots are already at 60 EPH.

First of all, I am not a scorer, second of all.. my bots are already at 60 EPH.

Honestly, it just seems to be most people's default is to criticize someone of just wanting personal benefit... then basically admitting that they don't want change because THEY feel like any change to the current system might undo THEIR work.

When I see people throwing out this particular insult of character, I tend to think of the quote that "every accusation is a confession," myself.

Would help low levels and open up targets inasmuch as wh0res are concerned (also better for low levels).

At this point, I think we gotta be realistic that "real" bots aren't trying to fight other "real" bots. So... basically just whether you want dumpers and established players to have some inherent advantage over public wh0res and new players. For record... a little interesting in that it actually opens up the dumping strategy, however, and very much actually helps it overall - just largely invalidates the old dumping strat.

I tend to think the game is hostile enough to newer players already and dumpers are less good for game than regular wh0res.

...besides, almost never a fan of abstract, hidden formulas like this.

So... simple.

I'd support 60 EPH for any clanned bot also.

Unlike you, however, I very much would actually benefit from the change.

Funny enough at this point 60 EPH might not be a bad idea because of the sheer amount of wh0re bots available now vs. when we got rid of it back in 2012. I think the main reason for it was that there were few clans at the time and everyone was attacking each other more like real wars and to keep the "real wars" going Ender pushed it down to 20 EPH to try and make wh0res less useful vs. attacking others. But now that the 1st place/2nd place etc. clans mostly use wh0res anyway and dumpers being a pain in the arse to keep up wins and ratios, a return to 60 EPH might actually be good for these reasons:

• It would provide 3 times the current energy per month available, which would reduce the need to make new bots/upkeep clans by 2/3s. Which would be highly useful for newer players/get the clan wars going more maybe.

• If we also add the inactive bots energy thing and go towards active scoring systems then it wouldn't really matter if it was 60 or 20 EPH. The inactive bots wouldn't have it added to their overall totals then.

• This would give us a good reason to just add the 200% speed buff full time since 300% more energy would be available. It would probably even out.

  Wouldn't mind trying it out for a month and seeing what happens though. Worst case scenario a new 1st place grand total month is made (or it maybe wouldn't count vs. the old records or we could call it New Energy System and start anew) or something goes wrong with the energy scripts/buff stuff.

  Just to make an example:

  New energy system takes effect, I gain 200k above my idle energy, random dumper gains base line idle energy, the new energy system says I have 200k energy gained towards total energy and the dumper gets 0 energy for total energy gained. All bots gain 60 EPH so everyone has targets at pretty much all times driving more people to score more maybe + 200% speed buff makes things like low level scoring faster and higher level bots easier to train (although I'm also supportive of giving unlimited 200%-250+ xp buffs to bots above level 300 just because it's such a pain to level or maybe lower the xp needed, either or).

  But whatever, just ideas.