complaints

There have been a number of PayPal chargebacks made against my account over the past week or two for a sum on the order of hundreds of dollars. I looked into this and it appears to be mostly from one person who has already sold their stars for cash. I'm not going to out or punish the person until at least giving them a chance to defend themselves (I just sent a bmail), but this seems pretty cut and dry. I could understand this sort of scam happening if this was a game run by a huge corporation like World of Warcraft or something, but I'm just one indie developer building a game in my free time and now I'm liable for these charges. Not cool at all.

What a piece of shit.

What a piece of shit.

i hope they get hit by a bus, or eaten by a moose.

I hope they get eaten by a bus that's being driven by a moose!

that would be weird... but still

I hope he gets hit by a bus and shat on by a moose.

I wouldn't go that far, I just wish he gets scammed out of a shitload more money by a fellow piece of shit. Karma ftw.

Any scenario of death resulting from moose and buses can easily be recreated here in Canada. Hell, we can have a moose fly a helicopter that's transporting a bus by air crane to smash right into the little sob.

looking forward to the outing

Moose (meese?) are fucking awesome. They have these huge ridiculous looking things on their head and look like they don't give a crap. And then they fly helicopters too? Damn they're cool.

whens the movie coming?

They´re doing a re-make of "The Smurfs". Just replacing the smurfs with moose.

yeah, moose's are awesome..

He deserves not death. Death is the easy way out for him. Torture sounds better. Make him or her feel the pain. Do it slowly and if they die bring them back with those things docs use, Make this person suffer beyond anyones imagination...

-rithy

im pretty sure torture is illegal :/

depends ...

this is why we should bring back the colosseums for arseholes like him

give him a butter knife to defend himself lol

naa a butterknife would be too good ... give him one of those big air-dried hams and throw him in to the lions.

Give him a crab whistler

A broken crab whistler.

That's fucking lame.

What I do like though was the way this thread went.

Ender: I'm getting scammed.

Community: Fucking scammers

Fucking scammers

Fucking mooses

yeah....

torture may be illegal but that doesnt stop the government from doing it? Doesnt stop mobs or gangs. So whats from stopping us?..

the consequences of the actions

Strap to chair
Metal stakes through knees
Electrodes on each stake, completing circuit
Motherfucking ouch
When electric bill = amount of money he scammed Ender out of, timed served.

Good luck with making this not a problem in the future Wiggen ;)

Torture is illegal for humans to do.

NOT MOOSES!

I can train a moose for this task if so desired.

If you could train a moose to torture I'm sure the authorities would find something to charge you with.

And so the community decided upon a just punishment; anal rape by moose antlers

Good luck with making this not a problem in the future Wiggen ;)

*Wiggin f00!

Yeah I'm not sure what the solution to this problem is. The first idea that came to mind is to keep stars in some sort of lockdown mode while the transaction is still disputable, but I did a little research and from what I understand, there isn't a fixed period of time for this. Another solution is to just not allow new stars to be traded, but I don't think people would like that. I'm open to other ideas.

delete their bots and ban for life! evil grin

recollect the stars and delete the bot

But he sold those stars first, so that makes it more tricky.

I do think Ender should - from now on - delete those stars though. If people know the risks involved in buying cheap stars from unknown players, they'd rather pass.

Yes, and more people would buy stars from Ender, instead of second hand, which would be much better for the game.

A broken crab whistler.

Crab Whistlers are indestructible.

Do you get like notifications whenever 'crab whistler' is posted or something?

Well after a short back and forth with the scammer, he apologized but didn't really give me any reason not to lock/reset him, so here he is (and fittingly named):

http://bots4.net/profile/6270/evil

He has other bots but they appear to be of mixed ownership, so I've left them alone.

As for what I'll be doing about this in the future, I'm actually currently leaning towards removing perm star transfers. Hear me out though! This would not apply to any stars bought before this policy was implemented. Terms of existing purchases would be honored.

And since it will inevitably come up, I'll preemptively respond to the greedy admin angle now. Getting rid of the secondhand star market would likely put more money in my pocket. I won't bullshit you and deny that as a benefit of this solution. The reality though is that my time is more limited than it once was and so money ends up influencing where I focus my efforts. Those of you who have been around this community awhile already know I was doing this stuff for a long time before it became profitable, but for the others, being passionate about something and wanting to make money from it absolutely are not mutually exclusive.

This solution would nicely eliminate all sorts of nasty scenarios like the one I currently find myself in as well as perhaps put some more money in my pocket, all without really sacrificing much for players. It's rather unusual for a game to provide means for you to recoup your investment, and plus you can always still sell your bot if you're really insistent on cashing out. I'm still curious to hear what people think of this though, so let's hear it.

Wouldn't it still be possible for someone to buy stars on a bot, then sell the bot with the stars to someone else?

I've read this a few times and I still don't know how I feel about it. I would rather there be something like a 180 day perm. star cooldown once they are initially bought.

i'd have to agree with myriad, that wouldn't change anything about the current problem of buystar-sellstar-refoundmony. Only change is that the problem is locked to one bot at that puts it on equal terms with the script using bots coming to lockdown or ban.

It would be pretty stupid for somebody to attempt to scam, when the stars are under one bot, so their pretty much putting a target on themselves by attempting any scamming.

i buy a lot of secondhand stars and i dont like the idea. this is one spammer out of how many transfers? there has to be another solution. in my opinion not being able to perm move stars would make stars not as valuable. i mean, you paid $10 bucks per star. one should have the liberty to do as they please with them...

Mo' money, mo' problems

i mean, you paid $10 bucks per star. one should have the liberty to do as they please with them...

Or as floR used to say: "No, you donated to the game, i don't owe you anything."

@Ender: this scamming probably won't be a big deal. One of how many donators pulled this stunt? Like Myriad said, not allowing perm transfers isn't a solution; they could still sell a bot + stars. No perm transfers hurts other players though, and the in-game trade that goes with it.

In your shoes i'd make it a rule if someone charges back his/her donation, you withdraw the stars - no matter who they're sold to afterwards. This means buying second hand stars is kinda risky, and people will think twice before doing so, and probably rather buy them the official way.

Let the B.O.T.S. Union handle all the financial stuff I say.

I dont trust those commie bastards.

What about that 'tall dark man' who handles my insurance? I'm sure he knows a few tricks to stop the scammers.

i second jans notion of regardless of whether or not the stars were sold, you still take them back if the original buy gets their money back. let the secondhand buyer deal with trying to recoup their money from the scammer.

another twist to this is that the bot used to buy the star could be transferred in ownership to the person who lost the stars and that way both the scammer loses their bot, the refunded stars are not left in the game and the person who bought the stars from the scammer at least has a bot out of it.

In your shoes i'd make it a rule if someone charges back his/her donation, you withdraw the stars - no matter who they're sold to afterwards. This means buying second hand stars is kinda risky, and people will think twice before doing so, and probably rather buy them the official way.

That.

I agree with recent sentiment

• Withdraw the stars offender purchased/donated/whatever
• Reset that bot
• Block(if possible) that person from donating again
• Let the person who bought the 2nd hand stars do their own chargeback.

Let the person who bought the 2nd hand stars do their own chargeback.

Yes, but it's not Ender's problem/responsibility

Hmm yes, that does seem to be a pretty glaring flaw with my plan, that business about just selling the bot with the stars instead of the stars themselves. It had crossed my mind when I wrote up that post and I had an answer to it, but now I just don't know what I was thinking.

Anyway, treating stolen stars like traded AC bots seems like a better solution. A necessary (and unfortunate) risk of trading. It still seems kind of sucky and I don't like it, but like the traded AC bots policy, it's better than the other sucky solutions and one of them has to be chosen.

Makes you kind of wonder what floR ever did with this type of situation. I'm sure it came up before but I never heard about it.

I always sent floR cash in a funny violent vegetable card. Don't know if he had paypal. Risky sending cash in cards but never came across a problem.

why on earth would people rip people of! this game isn't as big as other! But is way better

Why the fuck would you necro a thread almost a year old?

why reply to a thread all most a year old?

He didn't reply to the thread, he was asking you a question.

Which is still technically a reply.

It doesn't say "Answer question", it says "Reply to Thread".

Good try.

why reply to a thread all most a year old?

In the context of that sentence, he's saying the reply was to a year old thread.

Why the fuck would you necro a thread almost a year old?

The reply, is toward a comment only 5 hours old from the time of his post. The purpose, was to ask a question.

Puff your name says it all goodbye

Adios then lol

This sadly still happens, but I've just come to accept it as a cost of doing business.

I hope you lock all accounts of those who do?

dont you have any means to fight it with paypal? Is it possible to make purchase not possible to cashback?

Not even a purchase, it's a donation/gift isn't it?

you are right...it is a donation basically. So how can you chargeback donation? Its not like you are paying for stars, so you cant chargeback on basis of not getting stars (even though this guys do get their stars, so i dont know how that is not disputable).

PayPal should solve these cases for Ender, IMO. Cause im sure Ender has documented time and date of donations and stars given to those accounts, also time and date of when those stars were transferred to other bots and botmail conversation for details of trade between scammer and 3rd party. So with this info, PayPal should get money back to Ender easily

Read the chargeback FAQ and you will see that the entire discretion of whether the money is returned is up to the credit card company of the user that "scammed" Ender, not PayPal.

I hope you lock all accounts of those who do?

Yep.

dont you have any means to fight it with paypal? Is it possible to make purchase not possible to cashback?

When someone files a chargeback, it goes through their dispute process. During this time I submit any material I have, like the payment page they went through, proof they received the goods (stars), but there's really not a lot someone selling virtual goods can do. It's very buyer-friendly, not sell-friendly.

And yes, what actually happens is that the person will challenge the credit card charge, and then the credit card company and PayPal argue over who the money belongs to. PayPal represents me with whatever material I provide them. That's my understanding of the process anyway.

Not even a purchase, it's a donation/gift isn't it?

We call it donations here, but I'm technically selling virtual goods (that's how Uncle Sam sees it too).

I really dont get people who do this. Being anonymous makes it easier to do stuff like this i guess.

You could publish all private data of those people. Name and shame! Name, address, email, etc.

As entertaining as that would be, I think Ender could run into legal issues with that if one were to pursue him. Just a name would suffice :P

that would be illeagal in so manny contries that i'm quite possitive it would be too in the US

Name and shame those that have done it recently Ender try your best to:)

I'm sure it's legal to link to their public social media profiles at least.

But legal or not, i wouldn't let them get away with it so easy :)

PayPal and all that is always buyer-friendly which is pretty shitty.

That's why I always have people pay via w/u when they buy shit, or do open/close dispute if it's via PP.

That way, the only way they could chargeback would be via a credit card dispute, but that requires legal action and no one would do that, or at least no one sane anyway.