suggestions

What does everyone think of being able to "pre-pay" for the next available tournament. It would still take the same screenshot as the few days prior already.

So even the mass adding of bots to clans the day before would still need be done/paid. This would help the more inactive players haha

Or removing cost for tournament entry altogether?

Agreed on removing cost entirely. I would sign up a lot more non competitive bots for the fun of it if I didn't have to put kudos on them all, and I imagine more people would do the same. Always pretty neat to see how months go when there's a large amount of regular bots in the pool.

Would be nice, also make it weekly instead of monthly.. more fun to look forward to, could also add a participation trophy to make it even more fun. xD

Weekly is excessive. However, a one-time "Participated in a Tourney" bronze/silver medal would be nice.

Wasn't there a kudo give away in Bots2 with tourny fees?

What if Jane did something like that with the fees? shrugs

I like throwing random bots in the tournament

Top 3 finishing in each cat gained a kudos and xp prize. For lower levels it was like 1/3 of a level, for cat 1 is was peanuts. If this was introduced again a tourney bot can only win 3 times before it levels, might be a fun thing ;)

might be a fun thing

It really wouldn't be

Is it really "fun" for anyone to build a bot and... never use it except to login once a month to register for a tournament?

I don't get it... but to each their own.

So far as game engagement though? I definitely think the game benefits from awarding XP to tourney winners and promoting actual turnover and change (and more activity by playerbase to have to build again) for these lower rungs of tournies.

Especially with freaking being incorporated in game, seems insane to also remove the XP gains...

It's mostly due to the nature of making them. The effort required to simulate fights between different builds, adjusting stats (sometimes only by 1), and determining how to get to that build by the level you want it at is quite a bit. All that just to have it only viable for 3 tourneys is a bit much to swallow for the people that take the time and effort to build them.

I think this is why the idea floated by a few people (myself being one of them) to have the level ranges of the tournament be dynamic rather than the way they are now would be better for the idea of "change".

It would promote builds at all levels to be built in order to be more viable and have greater range (which would be a better benefit to those that build tournament bots), but wouldn't cause already built bots to become completely useless (depending on the range for that month's tournament, old builds might be better suited).

The playerbase loves to think they want to have things and keep them forever and "deserve" forever then being rewarded by the game for everything they just "earned."

That's all bullocks.

Stagnation is death and bad for everyone.

Bots getting leveled from tourny wins is just an excuse to give shit bots easy wins when the 5 players who actually build them can't be fucked to anymore.

Even more so when you are arguing for something that I (as well as others, even Myriad has brought up) have countered with a very viable solution that removes stagnation.

I just think it's completely asinine how the current playerbase loves to defend the status quo (often while crying about how the game doesn't offer them enough).

The game discourages activity at every corner and the playerbase tried to game that system... so now they're constantly trying to defend the broken aspects and see any thoughts of change as an attack on themselves.

With freaking, tournament bots have insane advantages over "real bots." That's fine... but why would "normal" bots ever even bother signing up to these things?

Your perfectly-built scorer still is gonna have very little chance of winning one of these things... but maybe if they felt like there was at least a small chance...

And at this point, is anyone even building tournament bots? The game should maybe try and actually encourage that...

Instead, everyone will complain about tournaments... while still effectively trying to keep them basically as is. It's just maddeningly stupid.

Let's be real: NO ONE ACTUALLY WANTS ANY REAL CHANGE.

Or, at least, they'd rather try and "protect" what they think they have more than any real change.

And so far as changing the level ranges? I'm all for it! That's great. But... I think the XP should also be reimplemented.

Because... the game would just be better for it.

I don't have 100s of tourny bots, but XP gain isn't a terrible idea. Maybe even an 1/12th level type thing. So after 12 wins it levels. A year....I mean that sounds decent.

Most clans have multiple of the same bot for a category, only one with get 1/12th a level anyways.

Also, the original idea was for paying for the tournament, let's make a different thread for the XP idea.

I just think it's completely asinine how the current playerbase loves to defend the status quo (often while crying about how the game doesn't offer them enough).

I defend the core of the game. I like the games simplicity and how it gives something to pass the time. My complaints are almost exclusively in appearance or QoL.

The game discourages activity at every corner and the playerbase tried to game that system... so now they're constantly trying to defend the broken aspects and see any thoughts of change as an attack on themselves.

Odd how this is a continued statement by so many naysayers yet the game continues to be played day in and day out. 25 years later and here we still all are. playing. Furthermore, arguments have both sides and your attempt to state the side you aren't on as broken is asinine. If you truly felt that you could build a better game utilizing your ideas and pull in plenty of people, nothing is stopping you.

With freaking, tournament bots have insane advantages over "real bots." That's fine... but why would "normal" bots ever even bother signing up to these things?

Even scores are generally freaked, so you can utilize better builds sooner. Obviously not to the same degree as tourney bots.

Your perfectly-built scorer still is gonna have very little chance of winning one of these things... but maybe if they felt like there was at least a small chance...

Pretty sure the point of tournament is "best of the best", not roll the dice and maybe you'll get lucky. (Though occasionally that's still the case when even now some builds are only better by 1% and that can sway the results a lot).

And at this point, is anyone even building tournament bots? The game should maybe try and actually encourage that...

The same people build them because they take a lot of time, patience, & effort. Not a lot of people want to spend time making them for a one day a month impact.

Instead, everyone will complain about tournaments... while still effectively trying to keep them basically as is. It's just maddeningly stupid.

No one is complaining about the tournament itself. That would be you. We're talking about the QoL aspect here.

Let's be real: NO ONE ACTUALLY WANTS ANY REAL CHANGE.

No one wants YOUR change. Don't get that confused.

Or, at least, they'd rather try and "protect" what they think they have more than any real change.

Protect the game from being bastardized into something an individual believes the game should become.

And so far as changing the level ranges? I'm all for it! That's great. But... I think the XP should also be reimplemented.

And I don't. I think XP makes little sense. It doesn't promote anything more than requiring the person to rebuild the bot. Which is why some are against it because as stated, building them takes more time than just building a normal bot.

Because... the game would just be better for it.

According to you. Not everyone shares your same belief.

I defend the core of the game... My complaints are almost exclusively in appearance or QoL.

No crap.

And how's that working for the game again?

Working great.

Is it really "fun" for anyone to build a bot and... never use it except to login once a month to register for a tournament?

I don't get it... but to each their own.

So far as game engagement though? I definitely think the game benefits from awarding XP to tourney winners and promoting actual turnover and change (and more activity by playerbase to have to build again) for these lower rungs of tournies.

Ofcourse it's fun and interesting to build something and see the results, some builds are a real challenge to calculate and build... you are actually using your brain instead of just clicking and watching energy or exp go up and when you figure out a new or diffcult build and make it, feels good. Some months I used to log onto mine a lot more than once to attack people for fun or if needed, speaking of which it's probably not a good idea to upset tournament bot builders at the same time as arming them with hundreds of leveled tourneys which are only useful for "raiding" people/bots that upset them(maybe those who sided with the idea). All for change to the tourney just not something that effectively deletes peoples hard work.

What does everyone think of being able to "pre-pay" for the next available tournament

Removing the cost would be much nicer than prepaying along with some form of clanning them all at once instead of individually which Ender has hinted at wanting to introduce in the past.

Guys, calm down, Ender's never getting on again and he's never working on another suggestion again so there's no real point in arguing about anything :P Last time he came on for a few hours he just worked on a couple of bugs nobody cares about then went afk for 2 weeks and has barely replied to his bmails at all.

Just get used to the fact that our suggestions at this point mean jackshit and Ender will just do whatever he wants when he wants to. If you want to play a game that gets updated by its creator(s) more often then I'd suggest playing literally any other game. Even Valve probably updates Team Fortress 2 more often lol.

Just saying all these suggestions pretty much mean absolutely nothing at this point.

...just not something that effectively deletes peoples hard work.

That's always the rub, isn't it?

Any idea for actual change is always meant with hostility by a playerbase that is afraid of "losing what they have."

The game itself rewards complacency and stagnation and the playerbase has built around all that to the point that now they actively fight for all the stuff they recognize as problematic and complain about... because the alternative would be them potentially having to problem-solve and put in more effort at some point, lest they get less "rewards" than they currently might.

I miss the older players. It's no wonder the remaining playerbase are most of the lazy turds and none of the oldschool types that actively loved a challenge and we're motivated by hurdles.

What do any of you people even "have?" What are you even fighting to keep here?

There's no clan race. Tournaments are solved and basically done. We've never fought "real bots" against real bots.

And the marketplace is almost non-existent at this point and all your "hard work" has no real value either.

At this point, people should be fighting for ANY change, if only for the sake of some form of change - not clinging so desperately to all their "hard work" and so violently against the implementation of any real changes ever occuring.

I miss the older players. It's no wonder the remaining playerbase are most of the lazy turds and none of the oldschool types that actively loved a challenge and we're motivated by hurdles.

Fucking kek. The "old school" players that literally invented clanning weak bots so they could fight them without actually fighting real bots in real clans for clan score. And continued for years to make those bots worse and worse to make them easier to beat. Then made sure to screw over any competing clan by way of effecting utilizing the clan diplomacy setting (main set to "war", other set to "peace" so the main competition couldn't gasin anything from them). "Old school" players that redefined it more here when the created the systems currently in use here, bots to attack your main with and scores of bots old Bots2 style.

I appreciate trying to game the system.

Players should be expected to want to play optimally. If THAT is your problem... then that's a game design issue - it doesn't speak about the playerbase at all...

Those same players actually suggested changes to game and "real wars" at the same time, for the record.

Playing the game how it asks to be played is not the same thing as trying to pretend the game is working perfectly because you're playing it "perfectly" and you think you're "winning."

And don't even get me started on how wonderful all the "diplomacy" and back-door dealings and everything else was. Great times, imo - but even if you weren't, personally, a fan... it definitely made things more interesting and was something that actually happened in the game...

No one should ever have a problem (with the players) for players playing the game how the game is asking to be played.

O M E G A L U L

Okay, does anyone at all believe the game should let you go down to 0 intelligence and not gain XP?

Why has the game always had a minimum amount of XP you can gain? Why are there repair costs and you have to replace items?

Tournament bots should gain XP for the exact same reasons... and that's why they used to. It's just much better game design, even if the playerbase doesn't wanna admit so.

...top brackets obviously being different animals (shouldn't have to stare the obvious... but, you know...).

I see.

Still going on huh.

Please continue.

Let us know what you think.

It's refreshing to hear your ideas.

They make me want to keep checking.

To see if you said anything further.

I'm really enjoying your ideas.

They are so well thought out.

Thank you.

It's refreshing to hear your ideas.

I'm glad to hear this.

... because you know that I'M not gonna ever stop telling you what I think. You've done a great job of being the biggest bully out there to anyone that wants to suggest potential change to the game... but I just think your attempts to criticize everyone elseare incredibly feeble and pathetic, dude.

It's a shame though. You could be an incredible force for constructive things in this game. Instead, you're you.

Be better, dude.

Absolutely love irony.

Still going on huh.

It's like raaaiiin on your wedding day...

Prepaid tourneys is a great idea.

Mal is AI Zal.

Luth? Um... you do realize you're like the crappiest version of Me, right?

remaining playerbase are most of the lazy turds

There's no clan race. Tournaments are solved and basically done. We've never fought "real bots" against real bots.

Yea if only there were players who could stick it out longer than half of a month. Also if tournaments are solved and even lazy turds can build dozens of them, where are yours? Complaining about a system you don't even participate in. As for fighting real bots, speak for yourself.

Yea if only there were players who could stick it out longer than half of a month.

Are you talking about ME?

Um... just last month, I woulda had three top 10 energy spots, except I took the 11th on a bot so a clanmate could take 10th over me.

We aren't Apex. Apex was the clan that lasted about 3 days before giving up to Lusitania.

Tarnished went almost the whole distance, even when we said it was virtually impossible on day 1...

Like, what are you talking about?

And tournaments? Never been my bag, bud. Seemed like a distraction and I was always focused on winning clan race with Rapture.

Now, I just haven't even been back long enough to even slightly think about being distracted with that part of the game. I got second with one tournie bot in my very early days... because everyone builds something, I guess - but even that seemed silly because there were, like, 5 of the exact same builds in the tournament and it was basically just random chance which one would win (which felt kinda like a stupid contest akin to rolling dice).

More power to anyone that cares about tournies... but never gonna be my thing.

Now, having said all that, it does kinda allow me to be less biased and more objective... and not simply offer a viewpoint that is less about what would be best for the game and is, instead, entirely self-serving and trying to protect what one feels they've already "earned."

It's like when I played Destiny and the playerbase pretended Gjallahorn didn't need nerfed. Or when I was on Overwatch and Roadhog mains pretended Roadhog didn't need rebalanced, despite being completely OP at the time.

Players are normally hot garbage at making takes about what a game needs... because instead of trying to have an honest take, they'd rather just pretend whatever they think is personally advantageous to them is "best."

I mean, isn't it telling that instead of even having ANY reasonable debate here, all that everyone has offered against my thoughts is childish personal insults and some concept that players "earned" perpetual awards for something they once did forever ago?

And continued for years to make those bots worse and worse to make them easier to beat.

I had more fun in the bots2 days trying to make a level 150 snowman axe wh0re because of the 2/3 str/dex requirement with nothing but community wh0res than the current system of making stronger and stronger bots but using 0 damage weapons to level them up fast. Making wh0res in bots2 was by far harder than it is now since you A) have buffs that speed things up ridiculously and B) 0 damage weapons so you can literally make a level 100 blood sword bot if you wanted to or something dumber. Also C) because there was no 250% exp buff you had to fight 2.5 times as much, thus making ratio wh0res last around 1/3rd the amount of this game.

I'm just arguing because since no suggestions are being worked on it's all we can do haha xD Well I could play the game too but meh, that's somehow more boring ;)

PS: I suggest we take wh0res out of the bad word filter because it's a pain in the ass to keep putting 0s in their names.

We aren't Apex. Apex was the clan that lasted about 3 days before giving up to Lusitania.

Apex and Lusitania went at it for a full 11 months, and another month prior to that with Strung Out. A full year of actual back and forth clan race. Not sure where you're pulling your info from.

In my time in the game, Apex would "compete" for the first couple days... then give up.

At that same time, Esvs would go really hard first couple days and then basically stop when Apex stopped.

Look, I'm sure I don't know how it all was before I came back... and maybe that was all just the end, but I came back when Apex won their last month... and, well, after that... Apex definitely didn't try very hard for very long before admitting defeat.

It is what it is, dude. Whatever. But... what were YOU talking about?

Heck, Rapture wouldn't have even ever came to be if I didn't have an absurd amount of tenacity. I raised it from dirt with the sole purpose of defeating 12M and CBMT solely because I felt slighted by what I viewed as a "holier than thou" attitude by those clans (except for ma). The only reason I started a clan was because Jans seemed dismissive and didn't take my scrub butt seriously (which... was probably unreasonable of me, ofc).

Have you paid no attention to who I am? When have I ever let anything drop?

Seriously, last month did you not see how long and how hard we went... despite me being very clear from the very beginning that I was completely certain that we couldn't get the win?

Almost the entire game is in one single clan... and I still banged my head against that wall until the last few days of the month!

It is completely ridiculous how absurd you people are. You just say nonsense, I swear. I mean... I understand you wanna insult me and all, but freaking try at least a little. Of all the idiotic things to try and insult ME with? Just... jesus, dude.

I didn't say anything about your own scoring, you did a lot last month. If anything you're the only one discrediting that by saying there is no clan race when you and the gang made Lus have to actually do something to take the win. However there's been many times where people or clans will give up part way because they either think it's futile, or deem it not worth the resources (dumpers, tps etc).

The only nonsense is the words you're trying to put in my mouth. I've not said any insults here, despite how difficult it is for me not to. All I've done is highlight comments you've made that I disagree with, or in the case of Apex where you're empirically wrong.

I'm gonna help you all here: if you wanna insult people then try to have the sting of truth. Even more, hit 'em with what they might actually be insecure about.

...maybe talk about how I DON'T know how to ever give up! Or just call me an "inelegant pleb with a messiah complex" or something.

I mean, this is just pathetic. Have some pride in your flames, people! You can't just throw out mindless "insults" - you have to put some thought into those flames, if you want them to land.

And so far as the "clan race" right now?

Please. We aren't that far off, actually... but there's still ALMOST THE ENTIRE GAME in a single clan.

I call it like it is, dude.

Pretending like a few dudes are competition for the entire rest of the playerbase is just stupid. I'm not gonna pretend the sky isn't blue if it is.

You idiots pretending like there's a legitimate race at the moment? That's just dumb. It's completely asinine. If any of you actually believe that then the joke's not even on you... you just are the joke.

Like, what was the point in trying to gaslight me anyways? Do you actually want me to believe that fantasy? Or... are you just trying to gaslight yourselves? I'm pretty confident it's the latter...

Great job last month, by the way! You guys sure were awesome! (FFS)

I will say this though: I thought it read as probably a snide remark that was aimed at me (in regards to the quitting thing), as it was followed by the comment aimed at me and didn't seemed aimed anywhere else...

But, was pretty sincere in asking if it was in fact directed at me as well. Will take your word for it that it wasn't. That's cool.

Definitely seemed like you were just trying to pile on, where there have been a lot of attacks made. So... I hope you appreciate why I'd want to make that assumption based on everything.

And doesn't change the fact that I still think the flames are weak.

...and if you wanna throw out those insults as well? Well, I don't mind. Feel free, bud.

Would be nice to see an announcement from Ender on his progress on the stuff he was working on, haven't heard anything from him in a long time now.. is he still alive?

Mal the only person insulting anyone is you, calling people idiots/absurd and making up untrue stuff about people or groups of people, everything you type is either untrue or irrelevant waffle, how can you say Apex gave up after a few days when we achieved more than you ever have or likely will, if you joined after our last win then we had already stopped playing pretty much hence we didn’t even try to start with never mind give up.

Hey, I only know what I know.

I already stated that I wasn't around before that end and was coming back to game at end of Apex's last win. Maybe it was different all pre-Lusitania and everything.

But... all those months I was around Apex showed up for about first 2.5 days of month was all... and then quickly completely disappeared when Lusitania still only had a modest lead. AT THAT POINT... well... Apex was giving up very quickly.

Sorry, that's just how it was.

So far as what I've done? C'mon, man... I know my time was a long time ago now... but I built Rapture from nothing and it became Unbelievably Dominant in my time. And... you have no idea how much unleashed power we still even had.

Roffler? Ville? Dude... there were so many more Rofflers and Villes we woulda been able to unleash...

You seriously have NO IDEA.

I mean, I basically got floR to ban me simply because the game was pointless and boring to me at that point, as I literally couldn't imagine any other clan ever being serious competition while I was there.

Like... you have NO IDEA.

Has anyone else ever been banned from game despite never cheating?

Seriously, people... do better with your flames. If you wanna try to attack me for what I did in this game? Well... I'm very secure with all that, thanks. Been there and did all that...

Actually, I probably shouldn't even say this since I'll regret it later (I kinda love just knowing things most no one else doesn't)... but there have been four different Villes in this game now.

FOUR!

Entirely different people.

And you people have been completely clueless. And... there are MANY different stories I could tell (but never will).

Trust me... I'm completely secure (too a fault!) with my part in this game.

Talk about convoluted.

Mal, do yourself a favor

Do all of us a favor

STFU

In case you haven't ever paid any attention... that's never happening.

The entire freaking game can throw punches my way. I'll keep getting back up.

Where's Fishwick and Esvs? At least they know how to throw a punch and make things interesting...

Honestly, if you just need someone to listen to your thoughts without interruption, I’d recommend a professional. There are plenty of solid therapists out there who’d be more than happy to let you monologue for hours on end.

...need someone to listen to your thoughts without interruption

Well, obviously if I didn't want interruptions then I wouldn't post here...

I mean, I can't ever say anything without about a dozen of you goobers wanting to chime in, can I?

So... I must like those interruptions... no? Thanks anyways though, I guess...

Honestly, if you just need someone to listen to your thoughts without interruption, I’d recommend a professional. There are plenty of solid therapists out there who’d be more than happy to let you monologue for hours on end.

He has me but we haven't chatted in awhile :P I've been off doing other things. I should state that Mal's ideas are based on what he thinks should be done to make the game better. The current super-stale state of the game with 1 clan having most of the good scorers time and time again is getting to be boring regardless of how many resources any clan has. The reason it's boring is because they expect everyone else to be as sweaty as they are when a lot of people left on the game A) want to play casually for a couple hours or so a day, if at that, B) don't really want to waste hundreds of hours in a month for the sake of a stupid 1st place trophy, or C) are newer players that come on very sparingly then log off forever normally. Yet all I hear is "sweat more and get more resources/people and you'll win one day in the future" lol. It's the git gud of bots4.

This stale state has led to months of the same people playing against each other and getting more and more pissed off at one another. When Ender was around for a month or two there was the idea that it would continue and a fair amount of activity was probably based on coming on and seeing if he did anything. A lot of the frustration on the game is the lack of any meaningful updates (even on ones we agree on). So what happens is well, a lack of faith that anything will change. Without updates or activity from Ender people lose interest in anything happening and having 1 clan win month after month makes it feel like it's not even worth bothering about and you should do anything else. This is what me and Mal generally get annoyed by the most, less of us trying our hardest to win but knowing that there are limitations to what we can do vs. having most of the entire game against us really. It's hard to get support for making a new 1st place clan when everyone seems happy to just play for them and get near free platinums. I personally can't spend 100s of hours on the game scoring like I used to even if I did have a clan full of other people doing it.

Also, what does this have to do with tournaments? Nothing at all. The tournaments, like Mal said, are pretty much cut and dry by now, controlled by one clan and relatively boring to look at since the same bots win over and over and making tournament bots is a time and star/camping consuming endeavour that nobody really cares about anymore.

Yes.

They just get pissy because any idea (which is the direction I'm almost always coming from) to reward increased player engagement and try to increase future player activity over past is seen as some kinda personal attack, since current playerbase isn't actually interested in doing anything more and rather just keep getting rewarded for... continuing to exist.

As such, my ideas come off as "threatening" to them.

It is what it is. The most frustrating thing, in my opinion, is that the current game state is kinda exactly what most of the playerbase actually wants. As such, I don't even blame Ender too much. I think he's often thrown out as a scapegoat.

What's he supposed to do when his playerbase is constantly so adamant that they approve of the way the game works overall and are actively fighting so hard to keep the game state the way it is? About the only thing he has for "change" is very minor crap like possibly adding even higher-leveled weapons (which wouldn't offer any sorta real change)?

We insist Ender should do more... but are even more adamant he shouldn't actually ever change anything?

My message to Ender would be this: ignore what the players are telling you they want. The game is rewards-based and the players in that scenario aren't ever actually thinking about game health and only, instead, how any changes could possibly adversely affect the rewards they feel "entitled" to.

The rewards in games are supposed to be used to increase activity. This game currently has a problem with its rewards system and entire game itself actively discouraging activity.

Make the rewards the carrot. If they aren't working as the carrot then... you know it's not working and change, even if only for the sake of change, is desirable (whatever your playerbase is yelling).

Correct.

Removing paying for tournament would be a great idea cause the effort to put kudos on an assload of bots is annoying. I think a good proposal to the current format of building 200 bots and plugging into a clan last second is kind of bs as well clans get none of the drawbacks of having too many in the clan as they never have to eat the cost of it. What I would propose to address both of this issues is put the burden of registration on the clan itself. Create a register function that the clan leader must use to register bots in his clan for tournament. To try and balance number of players increase the cost per bot paid out from the treasury directly. This will limit the number of bots a clan can enter for tournament as they either a run out of kudos on the treasury or b the cost will get so extreme per bot it won’t be worth it. This will also remove the exploit of never having to pay the tax man his kudos for having 200 bots in your clan.

This does open up the avenue to tournament specific clans just opening per month to soak the trophy’s real quick so I would say set a prerequisite that a clan must have existed for 30 days or exist or b must have place in top 10 as a clan to be allowed entry to remove this workaround.

If almost the entire playerbase is in Lusitania then limiting the number of bots they could enter would sorta just try to limit the amount of bots almost the entire playerbase could enter...

In the abstract, that seems off.

In practice, however? Would just mean Lusitania would be forced to have subclans and those "tournie clans" could potentially allow for at least some friendly competition... and I think that's something...

Undoubtedly.