questions

If I redistributed stat points from str/dex below the minimum requirement of a weapon or piece of armor, how bad would the durability rate drop? (And is it worth it?)

 

I haven't tried it personally, but I assume it gets damaged every single hit (or use)

 

I'm still using my frostreavers 2 levels and 600 fights and 200+ trains later. They're 3862/4000

 

The penalty isn't as severe as it was in bots2 and you don't get equipment damage on every attempt. This is one way of making what's referred to as "freaked" builds.

 

Weapons have alot of durability in the first place.

Armor get damaged about double as it is now from what i saw so expect them to break in half the time. Still managable esp with stars.

 

Thanks a lot Ender. Guess I'm making a freaky build.

 

I knew there was a difference, I thought Zebos above statement was a little too good to be true from what I had in mind from B2 haha :)

Is that really a good thing then ? Because it could sort of overpower bots at a lower level, giving them possibly a significant advantage over others who aren't aware of the new difference in formulas.

As an example, a bot with a very high INT, could buy every re-dis point along the journey, freak some 'higher level' weapons, and still have enough points left to sort of boost it's way to higher levels quicker regardless ? I know there's a limit on buying re-dis points and all that.

 

usually with ANY amount of int over 10, you lose your edge over others, and freaked builds are only good for so many levels

 

Freaked builds are very high maintenance. Some are more sustainable than others, and I would say it is impossible without stars. But I like the added variety to potential builds.

 

I'm confused, because even if you have stars and you freak your build Ender still requires you to have the base str for the armors. How would you be able to equip an armor that requires 260 str if you freak your str down 35 redis points to put it in con thus no longer having the required 260 str for the armor to replace it when yours breaks?

 

Like I said some are manageable, some are not. The "extra freaked" builds where you redis your str to con, are not manageable.

But you can "freak" the build a little less by using +str/dex armours to equip your weaps and then +str armours to equip whatever fighting armour you want. This can you give you a lot of spare points to put into con.

 

Yep, there are super-freaked builds with which you will never be able to equip your weapons and most of your armours again. I don't think many people will make these as who wants a bot that will only last 1000 or so fights? Then there are sustainable freaked builds with which you use +str armours to equip armours and +str/dex armours to equip weapons.

Super-freaked is built the same way as sustainable freaked. You just use 35-40 redis points to redis from str to con after equiping your weapons and armours. Super-freaked will take longer to build as well because you need to level up with 10 base int. Can't use the redis to redis out int.

 

I'm going to have to go back and find out who coined the term "freaked" at some point. :P

 

http://bots4.net/forum/2/1217

;)

 

This exploit sounds like something that should be addressed and corrected rather than abused.

 

I'm pretty sure Ender has said that it is allowed at some point. That and the fact that it suffers its own penalties should be enough to leave it in the game.

 

Freaked builds are very high maintenance. Some are more sustainable than others, and I would say it is impossible without stars. But I like the added variety to potential builds.

This is exactly my intention.

Freaked builds are allowed and are meant to provide some variation on builds, but at a cost.

 

Financial cost - only stars will be able to gain from this advantage.

 

That's actually not true and I would be okay with it even if it were. Donations cover server costs, my time, and they certainly don't hurt my motivation to work on the game.

As for why I don't think it's true, you can still camp equipment in a certain order to do freaked builds. This will obviously take more time than if you had extra stash space, but that's a stars perk. The stars don't enable freaked builds, they just make them easier...and I do think that's an important distinction.

There's always a fine line to walk in free-to-play games of what benefits to give to players that support the game financially and I do try to be conscious of this line. You'd have a valid point if I ever added things like "buy 10% more damage for $10" or "buy extra stat points for $1 each". Those are benefits that would only be possible through donations and would not be fair.

 

I'll take 100 extra stat points please :)

 

As for why I don't think it's true, you can still camp equipment in a certain order to do freaked builds. This will obviously take more time than if you had extra stash space, but that's a stars perk. The stars don't enable freaked builds, they just make them easier...and I do think that's an important distinction.

In the most literal sence this is true. But practically? No. If i would get freaked equalizers without stash space i would need to shop in this very order: 1. Mask of death, gravepalm/steel grip, Crow Caw and tearnauch in a random order. 2. Ravencaw, Gore rider & Satans claw 3. Wind chasers guardian cranium 4. 2 equalizers 5. steel grip, mask of death and trolls 6. Duriels shell 7. Troll shoe and possibly satans claw (or lava gout, but then later) 8. Manic Cranium 9. Lava gout

I wrote this down by heart so i may have made a mistake somewhere, but you get point. This is virtually impossible without stars and would probably take days perhaps even weeks...

In my opinion this is not doable for non-paying players..

this is definitly

 

Well. I knew it was hard to keep a freaked build going, but not that hard..

 

Theres different extend of freaked build. Mainors just a tad more freaked than others.

 

it doenst look properly, so here is the list again.

shopping order: 1. Mask of death, gravepalm/steel grip, Crow Caw and tearnauch in a random order.
2. Ravencaw, Gore rider & Satans claw
3. Wind chasers guardian cranium
4. 2 equalizers
5. steel grip, mask of death and trolls
6. Duriels shell
7. Troll shoe and possibly satans claw (or lava gout, but then later)
8. Manic Cranium
9. Lava gout

with every armour switch (because it breaks or something) you'll likely have to half of these steps to replace it. Weapons need al the steps but fortunately they dont break often :)

 

You're looking at perfect freaked builds with the exact stats. Eventually you will be adding str/dex to go for the next weapon and shopping for weapons/armours will get easier.

 

As Sera and Saiyan Z point out, that build is at the extreme end of the freaked spectrum. If you're careful, you can still make a strong freaked build using relatively common uniques.

For doing a freaked build, you're going to want your intermediate armors to have high STR and DEX bonuses. And if you don't have stars, you might be willing to sacrifice a few points for higher shop chance too.

Here are the top three candidates of each type that require less than 300 STR, with dominated items removed (cases where a more common item of that type exists that yields a greater or equal combined STR+DEX bonus):

BODY                        REQSTR  CHANCE  STR DEX STR+DEX
Raven Caw                   235     1.50%   6   10  16
Crow Caw                    195     3.15%   6   8   14
Twitchthroe                 52      5.40%   6   6   12

HELMET                      REQSTR  CHANCE  STR DEX STR+DEX
Valkyrie Wing               200     1.35%   0   12  12
Wind Chasers Guardian Crown 180     1.35%   8   3   11
Demonic Circlet             145     2.00%   5   5   10

GLOVES                      REQSTR  CHANCE  STR DEX STR+DEX
Satans Claw                 222     0.90%   10  5   15
Gravepalm                   140     2.70%   8   4   12
Venom Grip                  120     3.15%   3   6   9

BOOTS                       REQSTR  CHANCE  STR DEX STR+DEX
Gore Rider                  242     0.675%  7   7   14
Blood Seeker                120     4.50%   -5  15  10
Tearhaunch                  115     5.40%   4   4   8

Now consider Twitchthroe, Demonic Circlet, Venom Grip, and Tearhaunch. This group is accessible, with the highest STR requirement in it being 145. It is also common, with the least common item having a 2% chance. The group yields 18 STR and 21 DEX, or 39 points total, which is just shy of a 10 level bonus. As for how long this group will take to camp, here's how long it will take to see each item, in minutes, with the given probabilities:

ITEM            CHANCE  25% 50% 75% 90% 95% 99%
Twitchthroe     5.40%   6   13  25  42  54  83
Demonic Circlet 2.00%   15  35  69  114 149 228
Venom Grip      3.15%   9   22  44  72  94  144
Tearhaunch      5.40%   6   13  25  42  54  83

These items don't need to be camped in a specific order, so you're looking at under 2 hours with a relatively high probability. After that, you're in effectively the same situation as you're in without stars, depending on how close you want to ride the "freaked" line.

I'll concede that if you're a die hard min-maxer that must squeeze out every last possible stat point of your build, you're in for a hard time (but not impossible) without stars. But I think I've convincingly demonstrated that you can still make a strong freaked build relatively easily with careful shopping.

 

And I think that the level of planning the above post shows is reason enough to keep freaked builds. There are countless ways my post could have been different:

• Using the rarer, but higher STR+DEX bonus items.
• Favoring one of STR or DEX alone instead of the combination in order to reach a specific item.
• Keeping your STR/DEX up while shifting from intermediate to final.

This game needs more of this sort of variation, not less. Things will just get stale if all the best builds are simple BU links that don't require any foresight/planning.

 

Then all this does is change what the standard in. Increasing the planning still creates the same end game of a perfect bot.

 

That will always be true to some extent for a text-based game where battles play out without any interaction from the user. It was true of bots2 and it's true of bots4...no escaping that without some changes to the fundamental structure of the game.

To work against making the game too simple where everyone can get the best build, it's good to have things to differentiate, like freaked builds and a variety of equipment to choose from. You only have to go as far as the Hints forum to see that there's a lot of variation in builds in this game. If it was a simple matter of specifying a level and receiving a "perfect" build, you wouldn't see debates about builds/armors, slight tweaks to what people propose, and so on.

This game isn't on the level of chess in terms of depth of strategy (nor does it claim to be), but it's a bit more complicated than tic-tac-toe. You've gone from arguing (a) freaked builds are exploits and should be removed, to (b) freaked builds are only available to those with stars (I debunked this), to (c) freaked builds add complexity to an inherently simple "solvable" game. I'm not sure if you have an axe to grind and are just disagreeing with me on principle, but I'd appreciate constructive feedback more over one-liner disagreements.

 

To be honest, in the long term I wish to see some luck based factor, but I dont expect to see that feature within the first year.

Freaked builds are a nice options to go for really, in the end they are the new perfect build, however few people will go to the extreme end, therefore there are varieties of freaked builds along with the normal build. This is the new variation. Again players that know how to use it and that have stars will be in advantage, however thats the same as with bots2, the players that 'knew' perfect builds were in advantage ,and so were the players with stars.

Essentially nothing changed, except at this current moment not every of the veteran knows about freaked builds yet or how to go about it the best way. Therefore its in a way still only a knowledge reserved to a few players. In a few months freaked build will be the common build for perfectionist whereas normal builds will be for the average player. Nothing much that changed from bots2 really, just a tad more options.

 

I'm actually still on the same point. It's an exploit to the system, and in its truest form only (at least practically) available to those who have donated, barring ridiculous amounts of camping, and that's still if you disregard the need for kudos to buy all the pieces required. You even recognized that stacking the equipment is near impossible without extra stash spots, instead offering decent substitutions. If someone wants to go through the effort of a freaked build, those 3-4 stat points do mean a lot to them.

I don't argue that it adds a complexity, but it has the same end game. It's three lefts instead of a right, but you still get to the same destination of perfect builds. If you want a continually changing system, I previously suggested what needs to happen, but it was shot down by everyone because it would remove their simple standard builds and cause a constant ongoing thought process - but that's a topic for another thread.

 

I like freaked builds because it mixes up the slightly stagnant cookie cutter builds and requires you to think outside the box.

 

Freaked builds add some new spice to the game. I don't think that I could go back to the old way of having the required stats for items. Freaked builds allow for much more tweaking and it will take some time for the best builds to be found. I went through several builds before settling for the one I currently have. Some pieces of armour which worked out to be the best surprised me. What people know from bots2 about the preferred armours is not necessarily true. For instance, armours like satans pyjamas, blood eater and atmas wail could be viable for a fighting bot in some circumstances.

 

That just means people with access to a spreadsheet will be the best players.

If freaked builds are being endorsed, that's fine and dandy, call it part of the game. I can see where some people are struggling to find the new optimums with that in place. However, for those willing, it is a huge advantage to be a contributor, which is moreover where I draw an issue. I'm fighting a losing battle though.

 

Sounds like a good reason to contribute to the game.

 

There has always been advantages to a donator really, its imo in almost the same category as ordering items. Essentially it makes armor break faster therefore you need ordering. Ordering is part of the star system therefore its more or less the same thing.

The other factor is it make your bot better. Its still possible to freak easily without star as long as u dont go beyond the mid or high spectrum of freaking, and the players that really freak it to the end of the spectrum will be the few players that contribute, which in the end is not that much anyways.

 

It's an exploit to the system

Not to debate semantics, but aren't exploits defined by the admin? If it's part of the game mechanics and I'm explicitly allowing it, it's not an exploit.

in its truest form only (at least practically) available to those who have donated, barring ridiculous amounts of camping, and that's still if you disregard the need for kudos to buy all the pieces required. You even recognized that stacking the equipment is near impossible without extra stash spots, instead offering decent substitutions. If someone wants to go through the effort of a freaked build, those 3-4 stat points do mean a lot to them.

Sure, if you want every last point possible, you basically need stars. But if you can get a 10 level boost for 2 hours of camping and stars enable you to get an 11 level boost...this seems quite okay to me.

If you want a continually changing system, I previously suggested what needs to happen

I'm curious. Link?

Basically, what Saiyan Z just said. He's among the most advanced builders in the game and he's still figuring new things out. You might argue that eventually everyone will figure everything out, but that's true of any game. I think I remember reading in Raph Koster's (of Ultima Online fame) laws of MMOs or something that there will always be players who will min-max. It's not necessarily a bad thing.

 

I think I remember reading in Raph Koster's (of Ultima Online fame) laws of MMOs or something that there will always be players who will min-max. It's not necessarily a bad thing.

I agree with this 100%.

http://bots4.net/forum/4/1938 <--- About halfway through.

 

I didn't read the entire thread. I read to the part where you said you didn't want to be selling stat points for $1 or any other "boosts" that will help in the actual building of a bot etc. I agree with this 100% However why not have the option to purchase more slots in a clan? Buy more ranks for the clan? And things that DO NOT effect the actual building of bots and how they fight.

Just a suggestion of possible additional means of income for you. I'm sure other ideas can be thought up as well...

 

TOTAL BS.

p.s. I read none of this thread.

 

BOOTS                       REQSTR  CHANCE  STR DEX STR+DEX
Gore Rider                  242     0.675%  7   7   14
Blood Seeker                120     4.50%   -5  15  10
Tearhaunch                  115     5.40%   4   4   8

Blood Seeker have +10 dex only and reqs are 170 str.

 

Indeed, he has Blood Seekers mixed up with snappers, are you by chance a proof reader?

 

Dude! Haven´t you checked my profile? Me speak no americano.

 

Me no speaka de any englesh.

 

ingrish

 

Que dijo? Usted habla bien Ingles. Mi cumpleanos es en julio. La escuela secundaria espanol FTW!