If I remember correctly, BOTS2 had a limit of 100 bots in a clan, right? 20 seems like NOTHING. If you make it 50 that would be better, or even the old 100 ==)
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There is a couple other threads about this but basically what ender wants to do is limit clan size so the monthly competition is more competitive and it isn't the same clan month after month.
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OK. Something along the lines of 50 would be nice too, 20 is TINY!!!
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50 is too much. 30 is a healthy number the additional 10 will give a buffer to inactives and leveling bots without the need of kicking non energy focused bots.
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That is probably not true, with 30 you would still have to kick inactive bots or bots that gain less energy.
With 40 - the same
With 50 - the same
etc.
Reason: competition, if you want to win, you need the most actives. Have 1 inactive and the other clan your fighting hasn't? They would have an adventage then.
Numbers aren't decisive, I know that, but it's an advantage they have. Therefore a clan will always strife to have 100% activity, no matter how much slots they will get to put members in.
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I mentioned this to Ender, he doesnt think theres much change needed. Greens comment kinda prompted me to discuss it here, just to see some other players views on this issue:
Hm yes your right Green, but not entirely. I didnt play in the last few years of bots2, but I doubt much changed in terms of activity, actually pretty sure there was less players playing in both servers over the years rather than more. Therefore I dare say that almost no clans will ever achieve 100% activity, once a certain clan size has been reached. Except maybe after a merge, and even then thats a short term period which is gonna fade over time.
Now to why I think currently 20 clan size is flawed.
If I take a look at the current clan rankings, I see:
rank clan owner members wins losses ratio energy energy month
1 <Eternal> Sera [111] 19 70,528 22,118 3.19 824,361 225,872 (+189,372)
2 <Ascendance> Rivan [84] 20 129,542 19,330 6.70 1,670,772 198,164 (+156,904)
3 <Reservoir Dogs> Mr Grey [82] 19 25,367 8,317 3.05 188,204 188,204 (+152,084)
4 <Shadow Zone> Darker Soul2 [83] 20 25,382 4,120 6.16 358,458 123,865 (+85,205)
5 <ArmagedoN> FNIX [136] 19 113,875 35,747 3.19 817,602 77,115 (+36,835)
My Clans individual player make up that have more than 5k (this is generous as anyone with 0 energy gain or losss is around 2k atm, that means that person to count as an individual only has to do 3k in 5 days due to today being 5.5.2011) energy: 16 players.
Ascendance: 2 Players.
Reservoir Dogs: 1 Player.
Shadow Zone: 4 Players.
Armagedon: 3 Players.
====================
Now basically before yesterday Mr greys single person clan was second, now third. Essentially the top 3 clans are made of 2, one manned person and then my clan. I dare say my clan is at this moment the epitome of an "somewhat above average" clan. That means my clan is what I consider a clan that has a mixture of 1-2 hard core CSers and a bunch of average CSers with 1-2 inactives.
However I also dare say Iam one of the best recruiters in this game and new player helpers, and I just gonna draw now comparison to last month clans, such as Cookie Monsters, Aflac and others. They had a bit more than 3-4 active players, even if not all of them were energy gain bots. Now are we gonna stand here and say this game is not gonna be won by a clan that has over 50% individual active players, that can somewhat score decent energy, but by a single person? And by a clan that actively recruits?
To keep my top 1 spot, I had to kick out several players I would rather keep, I actually had to go from 18 individual players, to 16, simply because 2 of them werent performing and I had to replace them with some bots from existing players that could perform, just to beat 1 person that owns 19 bots in one clan.
Furthermore 20 is limited because it helps those one manned clans. I dare say that if there are 30-40 clan size one man person clans cannot win, as they would have to increase their effort. Not that I dont say their effort is good, but do you want them to beat the effort of 16 individuals? Do you really want a game where, not noob but also not veteran clan owners, cannot even get into the top 3 with 20 individual players because the top 3 would be owned by singe player dominated clans? This would essentially make all clan owners just drop their shits and go single player mode too imo. Or we would have to have a power clan such as the likes of Champion + Rivan + Mr Grey + Scarab in one clan just to beat a single player. Thats also not an solution.
Essentially if there was no Eternal, we would be looking at almost a single player game ladder in the top 3 almost. I believe an addition of 10 clan size would not really result in 100% activity in 99% of the clans in any case it wont be worse than clans with 100% bots owned by 1 person... because every "average,normal" clan has inactives or leveling bots.
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And again. I appreciate players who can dominate a game by themselves. Its nothing against them. Its just not healthy for a game, which suppose to be firstly multiplayer, secondly clans stand for me, social friends and such. Not single player powerhouse.
Also Ender believes that this is a beta issue. I dare not say that because I dont believe many other "average" clans, mind you AVERAGE means not more than 3-5 hard core scers, cannot win against Rivan/Mr. Greys clan if I cant win. Yes I am winning now, but then I called my clan atm "a bit above average", because I do have some old timers in my clan. But can every clan? Even if we go live is that suppose to change much?
The problem with single player clans is also, the have the advantage of after a month, removing their high lvl bots and putting in low level bots. Anyone who gained energy at this moment, will agree that its easier to gain energy in the levels 20-50 than 70-100. But if I was a normal clan with normal individuals, those individuals rarely like to leave with their 100k total energy bot just to make sure that the clan wins next month. Single player clans? They dont care.
And you know I love you Rivan (top2 clan), but this is still a flaw I think needs addressing :P
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This sounds like its shaping up to a real wars scenario. Which never worked btw and was nothing more then a joke... It was boring too.
Why not go in the other direction? Allow an unlimited number of members in clans. Then you can do away with the one man clan ever having a chance to win anything because this is a team game and strength in numbers is what should win. Everything else in this game is based on numbers and so should the clans.
If somebody can manage to attract a thousand members then let him. Although I must admit that the majority of those members will probably be his own bots.
Bring back the option to declare war on other clans. Doing that will allow for whore clans to be built up and having a thousand whores in a clan that can easily be beat up on adds another demension to the game.
Don't stick to the old tried and failed things from the past. Give something to everybody. Some people like to build a lot of bots and then put them in massive clans and then use them as whore clans. Let them do it. Some just like to level up then let them build their own ratio whores so they can use them to level up. I would like to see somebody with a level 1000 bot. If they can do it then encourage doing it and allow it. Right now this game appears to be based upon the old.
Yes keep skript using cheaters out but open up the game to everything else. It will keep people interested. Limiting things (and real wars is limiting) will not keep people coming back. Don't be so limited in your thinking. This game could be a winner, you just need to use some imagination and not be so closed minded about everything. If it doesn't work them eliminate it. Nothings written in stone.
In fact let people do both. If some want to do real wars then let them, those that want to do whore wars then they should be able to do it as well. Just have different monthly competitions or categories. Clans when they are created would need to chose the "type" of clan it will be. Real war, whore war or whatever else might be thought up. Also have a war for clans that specialize in high level "int" bots, have one man clans, or maybe a war for 3 man and under clans only. Limit the number to 3 members. This could be one guy with 3 of his own bots. Think out side the norm.
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Chances of that happening is very low so i suggest you dont hope for it. Even if that was the popular opinion it will most likely stay as it is than not.
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But i do love how you made basically my post with hard cold facts about clan size into the overdiscussed issue of how clan energy works :p
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When Aflac won, I stopped csing around the 16-19th, Jans even kicked two of my three bots out of the clan because they failed to keep up... So when Aflac was doing good it wasn't just a one man show.. it was pretty much 5-10 people just getting 1-2k a day and the bozo getting a lot more.
Clans at 20 are tight, and with the energy system there is no reason not to be at a full 20. Even if a bot dropps negative 400-500 they are still adding positive points to the clan.... Theres just no reason not to be at 20 if you can support it.
Now, keep in mind, one person clans can do very very well in this format. You see, since energy can be gained by anyone from any bot, it is better to stockpile all of the energy on one bot that is the "best" at its level... that way you can limit the amount of targets your opponents have to steal from right? I like that one man clanns have a chance to compete with everyone else... because when beta ends and release comes I can tell you that I'm going to have my own one man clan (with a few exceptions)
So yeah, Clans at 20 are really really tight... you can't go inactive and expect to win even for a couple of days once release hits... I personally would increase the size to 25. Those 5 extra slots would make it harder for one person to fully take on and win against anyone, yet at the same time give you enough lee-way to allow five or so inactives.
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Dont forget that at this moment your allowed to have 5 bots online at the same time.
That mean a one man show can have 5 bots on. Whereas a clan with at least 15 different players, can at max maybe have two bots if they have two bots in one clan. However that one person can at any time have 5.. You can have as much activity as you want, but as energy is an finite resource, having access to alot of different bots is way better than 20 different individuals as long as you can keep it up.
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Woah. One manned clans shouldn't be able to win? Wtf?
If i put the time into make 19 more bots and I cs my ass off to win, I best win.
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1) Bots2 could not really be won as a one man clan.
2) The change of bots4 to bots2 in clan size was to promote competition not to promote show off.
3) One man clans winning is not promoting competition its promoting more potential one man clans, thus defeating the purpose of clans, besides defeating the purpose of a game that is a multiplayer game and it has little enough interaction with other players already (the game being mostly attacking other bots that are offline/training essentially against AI which is essentially in most games SP), theres no point in making it even more single played orientated.
4) One man clans have various advantages, being that they can potentially have more activeness than 20 individual players. They can have 5 bots on when he is on. Thats basically 1/4 of the clan being online. Doubt I can say most clans see more than 5 players online at any given time.
5) One man clans can just throw out not useful bots. By that I mean they can get a lvl 20 energy orientated bot in less than probably 1 hour, then use that for a month, get to lvl 80, discard it and go at it again in the next month. Real clans with at least some new players will have this attached feeling to their bot. Besides even most veterans are attached to their main bot in any case.
Essentially I do not condemn the person who is doing it, they are good/have no life/show skills whatever you want to call it, depending your view of it.
Iam call this because its not HEALTHY for this game. A game cannot be veteran orientated only to survive. This is harsh for almost anyone who is new/has a life/wants a clan with more than 10 different players/doesnt play beyond 8 hours a day in bots/doesnt login more than 2 bots at any time. I believe 90% of the bots population fall into either one of this category.
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Honestly i expect to see more competition once OB ends, some people just don't feel like putting in the time when it's all going to be deleted in a month. The biggest problem is as you've said, there's far too much advantage in just starting an entire clan of new bots each month. It's not even that much to do with activity, you have to spend way more time at 70+ to get the same amount of energy in the 30-50 range.
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1) Bots2 could not really be won as a one man clan.
Once I read that I didn't read the rest of your post because obviously you have never heard of black and white. or whatever that name was. bnw abbrev.
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I dont really think so..
My clan of 16 different players is only 30k energy away from getting uprooted from number 1 spot, by two clans that have essentially either 1 or maximum 2 player (in Rivan/Kerrod case).
My clan has the top 1, 4 and 5 current monthly energy gainers. Thats 3 out of 5 in the top 5. Yet I'm only 30k energy away from getting dislodged from number 1 spot in the clan rankings.
What your essentially suggesting is that a clan can only win is if they have 20 spots filled with bots owned by players (in this case my top 1,4 and 5) that will perform like crazy, which is realistically unlikely for any 'average' clan, and even if they do its not gonna be any more different to the whole concept of having 100 clans space and all the best player flock to the top5, which was one of the reason why we have only 20.
Draoi: Meh, I dont play green essentially nor do I follow its HoF, besides that its not an every month occurance. I totally can see this happening in here as it right now.
In the very end, if you dont think one man clans are pretty much winning this game and should stay so then stick with it, ignore this thread.
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Besides is 5-10 clan space that breathtaking a case? It sounds like I want stage a coup against Ender and install floR back on. If your little one man clans are that great, they surely can survive 5 more bots, hell its just 1 more extra session of having 5 bots online at the same time. Or 2 if its 10.
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An average clan shouldn't take first place, only above average or the cream of the crop should win.
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Its not only about winning.. Them winning all the time will basically disencourage any new players.
I dont know what other peoples goal is, but the future of the game for me is still seeing more players joining the game rather than not joining the game.
I also openly admit that adding 5-10 clan space at this moment is most likely gonna benefit me.
Also dont take my one man clan too literally. As I mentioned in the top 5 there are up to 4 players on one of those clans.
Anyway I rest my case, this game is populated by veterans who like to keep being the top, which means a person with my view is the minority in any case.
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See, that's the thing. When clan sizes where big, plays had to join a set of clans that were capable of winning. When they are smaller, it is more plausible for an underdog to creep in.
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Who's creeping in? i,ve crept from 29th to 15th? but i ait getten in to the top ten
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hmmm Sera. I don't know where to come down on this issue.
Your comment about 1 man shouldn't be able to win I fully disagree with. If someone is willing to put in the effort they should reap the rewards.
The issue with being able to reap energy easier at levels 30-50 as opposed to 70+ is a temporary one I suspect. Once the game starts proper there will be significantly more targets at the higher range. Would clan races in different brackets solve that problem? You could have similar ranges to the tourney brackets for instance. With obviously the biggest kudos naturally going to the highest leveled team.
But I do believe the clan size is too limited, certainly from a community perspective. It is hard to build clan spirit when you are constantly kicking poorer performing bots.
& btw Im Dead. I agree with you, versatility & catering to a broad range of people is what makes a good game great.
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I agree with Im Dead too, whores brought some more versatility to the game. When you got bored of csing all the time you could make whores, and the next month you'd cs with those whores, etc. Atm, everyone is just going full bore with energy gaining and I can see how that might get boring very quickly.
Also, without whores, where is the reward for players who have been around for years? This new system is more friendly towards newer players, but what is there for more experienced players? It doesn't take a lot to get a grip on what makes a good bot vs a bad bot, and so new players can get up to equal footing with veterans quite quickly in clan competition. Compare this with levelling bots, those who have been around for years will be 200+, and any new player has almost no chance of catching them.
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Oh and before someone mentions ACs, and how whores allowed cheaters to prosper in bots2, I say this: how does this new energy system affect levelling bots at all?
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This is OB and I'm just having fun while we can. When all the fixes are made, then one man clans will not be able to complete like this. I have 19 bots in my clan atm, looking for one more, or am I in the wrong thread.
Btw, I hope Asendance win.
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