Imagine a scenario where a player uses a script to build a bot and then sells this bot to another player, whether it be for money, stars, or other bots. Assume the buyer has no knowledge of the fact that the bot was built using a script. Now suppose the cheater gets caught and the bot that was sold is included in a reset/lock punishment for that person because it had been mostly played by the cheater, despite technically belonging to someone else now.
The buyer is clearly a victim here. They bought a bot from someone and ended up losing it through no real fault of their own. That being said, it's not just a simple matter of giving the bot back to the victim. The bot was still built using illegal means. It also sets a bad precedent in that cheaters could abuse this loophole to avoid having their other bots caught in the net ("oh no, I sold that bot to someone...don't lock it too"). No clear answers here.
I personally think the bot should stay locked/reset. This policy encourages players to be careful who they deal with and to only trade with reputable players. This isn't perfect and still leaves room for people to get burned unfairly, but unfortunately I think it's the best option among sucky options.
FYI, this thread was inspired by a (potential, not yet clear) situation developing here:
http://bots4.net/forum/7/2338
Please keep the specifics of that case out of this. This thread isn't meant to decide what should happen in that specific instance, but rather what the general policy should be for this sort of scenario. If you want to talk about that specific case, please use the linked thread.
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I can't think of a different option to resetting/locking the bot, but it does suck for the person that bought it, particularly if they have put time into the bot after the sale. I'd be very cautious about who builds your bots from now on though.
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Okay, slight improvement on what I said above. In the cases where bots were paid for using stars or other bots, I actually have the power to reverse those trades. As long as the trade is properly documented (maybe all this confusion is a good reason to have this feature), I can do this. You're shit out of luck if real money was exchanged though.
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A separate but pretty closely related issue that I think is worth mentioning here is what happens if you let someone else on your bot and they get caught using a script. I think this one is a little more clear and less likely to burn someone unfairly.
My stance:
You're responsible for who you let on your bots and take full responsibility for their actions.
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Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. If you let a cheater on your bot, you deserve to have it locked.
I also agree with reversing of trades if bots or stars were involved. I never really understood why people would buy bots for real money, just too risky for me.
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Well I paid stars for the bots to be trained then I (myself) camped them. Paid two stars for Megan fox and 2 stars for three level 65s but I camped them all. How am I suppose to know who is a cheater and who isn't? Why punish a fair player.
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A few posts up:
Okay, slight improvement on what I said above. In the cases where bots were paid for using stars or other bots, I actually have the power to reverse those trades. As long as the trade is properly documented (maybe all this confusion is a good reason to have this feature), I can do this.
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That still leaves me two bots down that I had spent time on and was none the wiser that they were cheated on
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What Myriad said. And please try to see this from both sides. I don't think it really needs to be said that my intention is here is not to punish fair players. Simply allowing a bot that was built using a script to continue to exist isn't the answer either though. Please at least recognize that this is a complex issue without a clear answer.
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And please use the other thread for discussing the specific case I'd mentioned. I'd like to keep the discussion here about the general policy.
That being said, a documented trade that was reversed would not leave a scammed player out in the dark...
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But in this game time is everything. I'm bot saying they shouldn't be reset but what about the time I spent on them?
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I don't really know what to say. I recognize that it sucks for the person that acquired the bots from the cheater, but there is no good solution to this problem. I'm repeating myself, but just leaving the sold bots as is isn't an option. They were built using scripts and therefore have no right to exist.
Maybe it's best for me to not support trades at all. If you still want to do it, you do so at the complete risk of losing the bot if it was built by a cheater. Don't want to risk this? Build it yourself or have someone you trust build it. It's not my job to make sure everything is kosher with your dealings; my job is to punish people thoroughly and ruthlessly for cheating.
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Why the dot dot dot? That doesn't sound that unreasonable to me. Let the marketplace be a black market where you deal with people at your own risk and let me focus on working on the game instead of sorting out these deals.
Honestly what would you do in my shoes? I'm getting the impression you're not capable of seeing this from a perspective other than your own. Of course it sucks for you if you get bots taken away from a scenario like this, I really do understand that. I want a solution that works for everyone, but this isn't a simple matter of just letting the bots created by cheating continue to exist. You have to recognize that before you can come up with a solution.
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Not going to be able to please everyone on this Ender. Wasn't floR's attitude that the marketplace, unless done through him, was at your own risk?
It sucks that you lose a bot you had put time into, but at the end of the day it's not a legitimate bot to begin with. It's not your fault, but tough luck.
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the way i see it is if u wanna trade bots, go ahead. do it at your own risk (to a point). if u can get both parties to agree on a trade and u never get the bot then obviously a mod or someone is going to need to step in, if the bot was built with a script, delete the bot from the database and reverse the trade.
pretty simple aye?
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Perhaps for now any non-bot assets (stars) the cheater may have had could be given to the "victims" as consolation?
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What happens to cheaters' stars are a whole 'nother can of worms. :P
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Someone has stars and gets caught cheater, perhaps the stars should be distributed, perhaps a raffle? Ender could announce it on the forum a week before and you just sign up in the thread. I don't, just a thought when I should actually be asleep...
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Completely support Ender, this is a nasty piece of business unfortunately. Think it's great he's willing to recover stars paid for bots. Consider stolen property, do the cops give it back to the people who bought it off the criminals? No they don't.
So now at least there will be some guidelines for the showroom, make payments in stars only if you want to play it safe.
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Tricky.
If you buy a car from some guy on the street and it turns out to be stolen, it will be taken away from you. And if you're lucky, you won't be charged with 'possession of stolen goods'. No refunds, no nothing. If you want your money back, you can try suing the guy.
However, if you buy a car from a dealership, you can expect some guarantees. Then it's their responsibility not to sell stolen cars.
Selling bots however is not Ender's job. It's not his responsibility. I think it's great he facilitates trades, but you should understand it's still at your own risk.
If stars were involved, he can take them from the seller and return them to the buyer, but that's about it. What if it was a cash money deal? Should Ender reimburse the victim when it turns out the bot was built by cheating?
And what if you create a bot and pay someone else to level it up, who then gets caught using a script. I'm sorry but that bot should get locked/reset. It's your choice to let someone else on your account. Your risk too. And you dont automatically deserve any compensation. As with the car deal, you're lucky if you're not considered an accomplice.
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What if it was a cash money deal? Should Ender reimburse the victim when it turns out the bot was built by cheating?
Fuck no.
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It always bothered me on bots2 that people made real money from bots that were leveled up by scripts. Talk about am incentive to cheat!
So for this very reason I think the bots should be reset and/or deleted. Unfortunately there will be innocent players affected by that fall out, but I think Jans' car sale analogy above pretty much covers how I think.
I think wiggin's agreement to return stars to the buyer is very generous & shows how much he feels for the players.
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Good points about the real-life analogy. Of course this situation must come up there too, so there has to be ways to deal with it. It's not perfect, but you can't give thieves/cheaters incentive to do what they do. As long as we have to choose, I'd rather have no cheaters than no marketplace.
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*I'd rather have no cheaters than a marketplace
Knew something didn't look right about that...
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I'd rather have no cheaters than a marketplace
Agreed.
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If a cheater levels up a bot to level 100 in 2 days (online time), and then sells it to a legit player who levels it up to 120 in 3 days. Then 2 days worth of experience / wins / trains etc. should be removed, making the bot level 106 or something again.
It would of course be very tricky to get the numbers even slightly accurate though.
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meh.. cba to read all of this.
Reset/lock bots. Return stars to their rightful owners. If you deal with real money you take a huge risk. Too bad
That's my short opinion
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If you were dealing with an actual item, and the buyer buys unknowing, the buyer is protected and is made whole again, either through a return of the money or being able to keep a product (generally for one insurance has already paid out for). The same thing should apply. We shouldn't be so quick to hurt innocent buyers just to fill our need of vengeance.
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The same thing should apply.
No, it shouldn't. This isn't eBay.
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How long does it take for you to see if someone has cheated. If its a quick process then why not put in a system that it has to be checked before its sold. Or if you can assign someone else to be able to do it, maybe make a user friendly version of the HTTP logs and have someone monitor it. Then when someone posts in the marketplace that bot is checked and once its been cleared then people can buy it.
If its a long process to check or you cant make an easy way for someone else to check it then this wouldnt work but if its quick and easy then it would be the best way.
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As Badger pointed out, it's not going to be possible to please everyone on this issue, but the majority seem to be in favor of "trade bots at your own risk". Further, after having gone through the process of reversing the effects of the case linked in OP, I don't think auditing all trades is feasible. It's labor-intensive and would require auditing star moves as well in order to trace their histories. It's not always possible to get in touch with people and work out the details. Way too much effort to support what I don't consider to be a significant component of the game; my limited time is better spent elsewhere.
You're still allowed to trade bots, but you do so at your own risk. If you want a guarantee you won't lose your bot, build your bots yourself. And if you must have someone else do it, do it through someone you know and trust, not any random low bidder. Keep in mind this policy is designed as much to prevent cheaters from exploiting marks for profit as it is to punish cheaters.
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Personally like the ruthless use of the ban hammer when it comes to this... I mean this kind of transaction should be buyer beware
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BANHAMMER! fuck the cheaters. KILL EM ALL ED!
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I'm unclear if this issue has been brought up and am well aware that this is well beyond the time frame, but what would happen if you purchase bots that are built legitimately, and the builder later cheats on "other" bots he owns. Will you reset every bot that that IP has been on or would you look further into the situation to discover if only certain bots that IP was on was cheated on?
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All of the cheater's bots would be locked and reset in that situation, regardless of whether they too had been cheated on.
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^ wow. I'm not buying any bots now.
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Thanks for the clarification Ender. This should be posted as a "warning" under your thread in the Market place also.
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^ wow. I'm not buying any bots now.
^^ that.
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Or always do deals in stars and document them so you can have a clear record?
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atleast people wont be doing business with cheaters anymore
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Or always do deals in stars and document them so you can have a clear record?
FYI, it's unlikely I'll go back and reverse trades, so don't count on this. With last week's situation that brought this thread about, reversing the trade ended up being a major headache and it's not something I want to spend my time overseeing. Only trade with people you know and trust and if you don't, you trade at your own risk.
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