suggestions

I think it'd be a good idea to change it so if you can afford it, you can buy a weapon/armour/shield that you don't have the required stats for, and keep it in your stash until you can equip it. That way, you won't have to camp for ages if you're lucky enough to see it, and if you've got the money now, you won't have to worry about losing it all and go about earning it all back when needed.

i agree, i always seem to lose my kudos right before im able to get the stats for the item i need and also im pretty unlucky about seeing the item i will need within 10 minutes of having stats for it,.. so i definately agree!!!

Sorry, this topic has been discussed many times before and it won't be made possible. You can always donate stars and preorder the item =)

I've mentioned this more than once before. It should be possible to buy and equip stuff you dont really have the stats for.

reason for this; i think it adds something to the game if players can make mistakes, fuck up their bot. When all you can do is safely equip a new weapon when you've reached the right stats.. its just kinda boring.

freaked bots do just this Jans, or are you talking further than that?

yea, but dont they have to pull all kinds of stunts to get their bot to wear overpowered gear?

I mean being able to freely buy and equip whatever you can afford. But with penalties of course. If you're wielding a weapon you can't handle, it should get damaged far more often.

freaked bots still equip items they have stats for.

they just change the stats later

Freaked bots is nothing new. You could freak bots in Bots2, however you did incur the penalties Jans is mentioning. This left your bot pretty much useless. I accidentally freaked my bots many times ^^

Wiggin's new system is a nice compromise between the two and leaves the dedicated players to utilise their jiggory pokery.

So no I do not think you should be able to buy armour you can not equip & nor do I think you should be able to equip any old thing.

I agree freaking bots is also a fun tactic btw. I mean, anything that makes a game more challenging / risky / puzzling is a good thing.

Will the damage-penalty be reintroduced btw? I thought it was.

Anyway, I just hate it when a game is all laid out in safe steps, and you're constantly confronted with limitations. "you cant do that yet", "you cant buy that yet". Let players figure that out for themselves!

Besides that, it just doesn't make much sense when a store wont sell you something while you have the money for it ;)

i agree jans, it doesnt. but it does make sense that you cant equip something that you dont have stats for

but it does make sense that you cant equip something that you dont have stats for

Thats where we disagree i guess. I think you should be able to equip it. So a player can try stuff out, and discover new things. "w00t new weapon!" - 5 mins later - "whoa it takes damage every strike!"

I adamantly disagree and completely believe if you don't have the stats for the equipment not only should you not be able to equip it but if later you drop below the requirements for an armor then that armor should be either moved to your stash or disappear altogether (albeit give you a warning first so you can adjust things appropriately).

im with nos on this

I adamantly disagree

Ok, but why? I've seen people post they're against this, but never why.

and completely believe if you don't have the stats for the equipment not only should you not be able to equip it but if later you drop below the requirements for an armor then that armor should be either moved to your stash or disappear altogether (albeit give you a warning first so you can adjust things appropriately).

that's consequences, not reasons.

How is that not a reason? That is his opinion. That's a reason to me.

(talking about freaked bots) at the moment the downside to having weapons/armours you shouldn't be able to equip doesn't even negate, nevermind punish the player using them. They are maintainable with camping and stash space, as long as you're not planning to carry a clan's energy score for the month.

i'd only be happy with people being able to buy and use anything if they actually got destroyed for trying to fight/train like that.

a list of things any of which would make me happier about this suggestion: reduced attack rating with red-stat weapons, reduced defence rating with red-stat armour, higher durability losses, durability losses from defending not just attacking (i don't think that's the case atm although let me know if i'm wrong), losing the bonus stats red armours may give.

as for the shop analogy, a store wouldn't sell to someone with the money within reason. sensibly they wouldn't sell cigarettes/alcohol to an underage child, even if he's flashing £50s.

@Dipsylol; yea agreed, there have to be penalties for equipping stuff you cant handle yet. Something which hasnt been implemented yet, but will be.

Your analogy doesn't really apply here btw. You're talking about children, but this is adults being denied to buy stuff. IRL I can walk into a dealership and buy a car, even if i don't have a license and dont know how to drive one. I would be breaking the law, and would probably wreck it, but if i have the money i can buy and use it.

I have given my reasons why i think this adds something to the player's experience; IRL you'd regret it very much, wrecking an uninsured car without a driver's license. You might even end up in jail. This is a game though. You should be able to do all kinds of stuff, and be able to retry if you fuck it up.

Taking away options and only allowing safe paths sounds boring to me, and therefore i really dont understand how someone could be against this. This is why i asked to elaborate. Maybe im wrong and need to revise.

ok the reason I think that this should not be possible is that I see the showroom more as a gym equipment room.

Sure a smartarse weed may be flashing the cash but the gym monitors still wouldn't let the idiot wander out with a 1000lb dumbbell to weight train with.

i think it does make sense if it's not taken so literally, as after all it is only an analogy; the imaginary store represents showroom, the cigarettes/alcohol are a high level item, and the child represents a player without the requirements for the high level item. that's what it was supposed to be anyway.

we obviously differ in how we perceive this point. i don't see it as a limitation at all, since if i wanted to go for a certain weapon or armour set - i would just level up a bot to fit to it. i like that you can't just get everything at once or whenever you want and have to put in the grind to get there. i just really like those sorts of games though where you grind and grind and have to work and jump hoops to get what you want.

Ok ok, purely from the game point of view; why shouldn't a player be able to equip something he doesn't have the stats for, -provided- there will be penalties for doing so? Real reasons.

The only cons i can think of:
- allows more players to buy stuff, so pickings will be slimmer
- players might ragequit after they've trashed their bot beyond repair

Pros:
- makes the showroom look less like Fascist HQ where you cant buy anything
- allows players to buy stuff in preparation of new builds
- allows players to experiment, try out a new weapon/armor
- allows players to discover what works best instead of being denied

Pro's (continued)

• Let's Jans experience the weapons above level 100

The only cons i can think of:
- allows more players to buy stuff, so pickings will be slimmer
- players might ragequit after they've trashed their bot beyond repair

Pros:
- makes the showroom look less like Fascist HQ where you cant buy anything
- allows players to buy stuff in preparation of new builds
- allows players to experiment, try out a new weapon/armor
- allows players to discover what works best instead of being denied

my thoughts on your cons:
- true, but perhaps only a major concern with a higher playerbase
- if people trash their bot beyond repair they would have the ability to reset it so this isn't such a bad thing

i think your cons actually would make the game more challenging and fun if they ended up happening, but it's the pros you point out i don't agree with...

my thoughts on your pros:
- ignoring this one, it doesn't matter
- i don't like that this would be possible, it would make the game easier and bot building way faster. it just looks like a con to me as it allows to no end of preparation for everyone's bots. anything that makes the game easier isn't something i'm immediately a fan of - i like having limitations and trying to find an edge within their confines
- this again i feel would just make the game easy/boring. i really like making bots and making different/random builds but i dislike the idea of being able to do this at more or less anytime. if players want to experiment, they can make the bot and if that takes too much time there's a fight simulator available which is pretty accurate. it's nice that builds are still mysterious/unknown
- again, they should use the tools like the fight sim, i don't see why this has to be made into a feature of the game when it's available already

There are penalties for using equipment where the required stats are missing. There is up to a 25% chance of an item taking damage on each hit as opposed to the normal 10% max, at worst, (if you had the exact stats for the item) in bots2.

Like Jans said earlier, nobody has given any reasons for why freaking is bad. You still need the stats to equip items. I am opposed to it being changed to not requiring the stats to equip/buy, but otherwise it is fine just the way it is.

don't comment if you haven't read the thread.

I read the thread. You want more penalties for freaked bots. You haven't given a single reason why there should be more penalties.

hmmz no. Jans wants the ability to buy & equip any weapon he chooses. With penalties for weapons/armour that you don't have the stats for.

I disagree as I think you should not be able to do this. I do however think freaking is a good compromise & works well.

Buying and equiping any item irrespective of stats is something that will never happen. The discussion seemed to be about creating more penalties for freaked bots. No reasons though.

and completely believe if you don't have the stats for the equipment not only should you not be able to equip it but if later you drop below the requirements for an armor then that armor should be either moved to your stash or disappear altogether (albeit give you a warning first so you can adjust things appropriately).

How can this be a reason? It's like me saying that anyone who gets over 100k energy in a month shouldn't be allowed to play the following month. Someone asks what is the reason for that. I say, that's my reason...lol :)

Can't see a problem for using stuff you don't have the stats for, but there should be penalties. Just increased damage or something

I actually changed my mind after pressing submit, buying something would be fine, but using it shouldn't be allowed, what would be the point in requirements in the first place? Pure dex with 80% absorb?

God, the term "Freaked" has to be the stupidest term for it. It could have been "Fagged" and it'd be better.

That said, the fact that you can wear shit you don't necessarily have the stats for and suffer 0 consequences is more than enough.

Fagged is the new freaked.

That said, the fact that you can wear shit you don't necessarily have the stats for and suffer 0 consequences is more than enough.

Erm, there are consequences. Equipment takes damage more often thus needing to be replaced sooner. Another side effect is extreme repair costs. Needing to have +stat armours stashed or having to spend time camping for +stat armours is another difficulty or consequence. For whoever thought there are no consequences, now you know.

Those aren't consequences when you get +250% kudos for no effort.

The gains FAR outweigh the negatives. There's no reason to make a bot that isn't fagged.

Everybody can get the same gain so that is a non-issue.

Or we could go back to bots2 rules and have everybody have the same build again. With the old rules there was usually only one set of armour that was optimal for each amount of str.

For example, with body armours you could just go from Iron Pelt, Spirit Forge, Crow Caw, Raven Caw, Duriels Shell, Shafstop and that would always be the best path. No thinking involved. In bots4 you go from Iron Pelt to Crow Craw, then back to Iron Pelt, then Raven Caw, back to Iron Pelt, then maybe Satans Pyjamas, then Shaftstop. The best builds keep changing depending on your other armours and amount of HP. There's now several variations of answerer builds in the lvl80 to lvl100 range. No more just sticking to Ravens, Manic, Trolls, Satans, then just adding con, and knowing you're the best. Each build has a shorter lifespan because there are more armours that have become worthwhile to use.

The system we have for now is fine.

A. You can only buy stuff you have the stats for. B. You can buy and stash ANYTHING that has been ordered. C. You can only equip stuff you have the stats for. D. You can continue using equipment once equipped, regardless of current stats. E. Using equipment with sub-req stats results in faster item deterioration.

It works fine. If it isn't broken, don't fix it.

I much prefer the myriad of builds to be constructed now to the rigid boring old system.

I see a lot of false information being claimed as fact in this thread, so let me start by saying that neps's summary is correct:

A. You can only buy stuff you have the stats for.
B. You can buy and stash ANYTHING that has been ordered.
C. You can only equip stuff you have the stats for.
D. You can continue using equipment once equipped, regardless of current stats.
E. Using equipment with sub-req stats results in faster item deterioration.

It also seems this thread was created to discuss changing fact A, but there's also a lot of discussion about changing fact C. These are similar facts, but still different and understanding the distinction is important.

As for how I feel about all this, fact C is extremely unlikely to change. I've stated a number of times and talked extensively about how I think freaked builds are a good thing. I think Saiyan Z put it best:

Or we could go back to bots2 rules and have everybody have the same build again. With the old rules there was usually only one set of armour that was optimal for each amount of str.

For example, with body armours you could just go from Iron Pelt, Spirit Forge, Crow Caw, Raven Caw, Duriels Shell, Shafstop and that would always be the best path. No thinking involved. In bots4 you go from Iron Pelt to Crow Craw, then back to Iron Pelt, then Raven Caw, back to Iron Pelt, then maybe Satans Pyjamas, then Shaftstop. The best builds keep changing depending on your other armours and amount of HP. There's now several variations of answerer builds in the lvl80 to lvl100 range. No more just sticking to Ravens, Manic, Trolls, Satans, then just adding con, and knowing you're the best. Each build has a shorter lifespan because there are more armours that have become worthwhile to use.

In short, freaked builds add some much-needed complexity to the otherwise simple task of perfecting a bot.

I'm not sure how I feel about changing fact A because I haven't thought about it enough, but I'm resistant to it because it has the side effect of watering down freaked builds in that it lowers their barrier for entry.

Ok, but why? I've seen people post they're against this, but never why.

Oh my apologies. I suppose the "why" was within my statement, apparently not. I dislike your idea because then it'll allow ANYONE and EVERYONE to freak, regardless of level and without even have to do the simple math ir requires to do a proper freaked build. This would remove the learning process from having to calculate which armors to equip and which order to equip them in to allow you to freak your bot.

I'm also sorry for completely going off topic and posting why I dislike freaked bots, but to further this even more I will state I dislike freaked builds because of the current system. In our current system you will obviously gain more if you freak your build "properly" because you can not only defeat the easier targets but you can also win enough against the "perfect" builds to make those rapes worth while. This will not result in a more diverse playing group but I think this will force everyone to eventually have to freak there won builds if they plan on competing because obviously "perfect" isn't perfect anymore.

Perfect just means fagged now.

It's the same game, just requires a tad bit more effort.

Hell, it makes it worse, because you're almost required to have stars to have the best bot now, because you can't really fag your bot without having tons of extra stash spaces.

And I thought stars were good because they didn't make a huge gap between those who have them and those who don't...

The "you can't freak without stars" myth was debunked here:

http://bots4.net/forum/1/1982

I think you'll find that most energy scoring bots don't bother with freaked builds, or at least not heavily freaked builds. There's simply no point, as scoring bots don't attack each other for energy.

I think the fact you have to put in more effort to obtain and maintain an advantage over other bots is a big improvement over the stale builds from bots2. The fact that most people don't use freaked builds indicates that the positives don't outweigh the negatives in most people's eyes.

I stand by my point

It's a hell of a lot harder to fag without stars, and I'm sure at certain levels it's actually not possible to have the optimal fag build without at least one extra stash space

Seeing as I do nothing at work, I will mathcraft it all tomorrow

I think you'll find that most energy scoring bots don't bother with freaked builds, or at least not heavily freaked builds. There's simply no point, as scoring bots don't attack each other for energy

I don't know about your scoring bots, but mine does, often, and I do attack other scoring bots.

I'm talking about the people who want to mass gain energy, DNM ;) The xp is the deterrant, so I can't see how people will be 'forced' into making freaked bots any time soon.

Aic ;)

Just for the record I'll put in my two cents, I like freaking but I also think if anyone can buy anything there should be extreme penalties if you have -50 -100 -250 stats for the item, otherwise I'd still be kicking everyones ass with the ruby katana I saw in the shop last night, which would be kinda stupid as I lack ~700 stats for them.

Ok i have to pay more attention to the game itself.. i didn't know a lot of stuff ^^ Changed my mind. With this low cap on damage% it's fine the way it is.

so i guess we need to re agree to agree now jans :P

imo the system atm is just fine, strongest builds would be freaked builds with str to con, but then again, they are mighty hard to sustain, so it goes every positive thing for some negative thing.