suggestions

Here's the quick history of NC for those that don't know it: In the beginning, I wanted the clan race in bots4 to be more competitive and thus made the clan member cap 20 in order to keep the barriers for participation low. Some people didn't like this restriction because it made it hard to have social clans, alts in clans, and so on. NC was introduced to address this: non-competiting members that didn't count towards rankings or the main member cap.

Anyway, I was playing a game on my tablet where the clans (well, guilds) allowed an unlimited number of people to join, but only counted the top 30 for ranking purposes. This got me to thinking, why can't NC be like this? Is there any reason for it to be explicitly managed instead of automatic? Off the top of my head, I can't really think of any downsides. My theory is that NC is as cumbersome for clan owners/leaders to manage as it is for me to code around. It's always felt like a hack and it gets in the way everytime I write new code, so I want to kill it. Thoughts?

 

would clan owners be able to control the 30 that would be counted?

 

Are you considering having all clan bots gaining idle energy?

 

would clan owners be able to control the 30 that would be counted?

No, the 20 bots with the most monthly energy would be counted. The main point is that this is automatic and not in any way managed.

Are you considering having all clan bots gaining idle energy?

No, only the ones that count towards ranking would.

 

No, the 20 bots with the most monthly energy would be counted. The main point is that this is automatic and not in any way managed.

i like it. +1 to scrap NC bots

 

So at the beginning of the month, how does that work?

& bots around the cut off point, how or do they generate energy?

 

For ties, it could break on total energy, which would favor more established bots.

Bots at the cutoff point just wouldn't have the benefit of EPH and would have to work harder to make it into the ranking set.

 

As i understand now, this system would work with small clans too? If so, you couldnt store your bots in clan even if you dont want to get energy anymore.

 

Fair point, this system wouldn't allow for bots being in small clans and not gaining energy. I hope that's a minor enough issue that it's okay to drop that.

 

what about clan trophies?

 

Clan trophies would be the same as today in how they are only awarded to ranking members. The only change is that "ranking members" is now an automatically defined set rather than a managed one.

 

How many members clan could have in total?

 

about this suggestion to abolish NC, there's a disadvantage for me then.

it might be selfish to say this but im trying to gain more trophy points for the buffs to use while leveling. im scoring/dumping to my other bot and to my other clanmates' bots in order for us to win as well as me gaining the opportunity to stay in the 20 non-NC members.

if that suggestion will be applied, with the same eph for all the bots and just a bit of energy they get (even just 1 energy), i will always be not included in top 20. it's hard to compete here at my level now seeing that the gap between the other levelers are still big (and they're stronger) and cant easily make dumpers as well. and that leaves me bothered and stop playing the game as a clan competitor and just concentrate on something else. and this might result in clan arguments.

so basically with that said, we can conclude that with abolishing NC, clan competitions will be bot based rather than player based.

however, if the eph is kinda tweaked for the idle bots (or active bots but not gaining energy through scoring/dumping) in higher levels gains more energy then it might be okay then. but i dont know really if it would work out.

i know you got my point guys. it sounded so selfish but that's my opinion.

 

A really good idea, I know how much of a hassle it is for leaders to have to shuffle bots around and how are they supposed to know who will perform the best in a given month, other than relying on promises. The only downside is Lyrad, Myriad, etc won't get their plats that they pretty much deserve

 

The clan member cap as it exists today would not change. There isn't one, but it becomes prohibitively expensive after a certain point to continue adding members.

It's true that this would make it harder for high level bots to make it into the "ranking members" category. It wouldn't be impossible - a clan could still keep their member count to 20 to ensure all bots are ranking members, but yes, more difficult. I think this is a reasonable tradeoff for the benefits of a simpler system.

 

Totally hypothetical here, if a clan was winning a month and someone wanted a platinum trophy for no effort, they could arrange with the clan leader to be included at the end of the month and get it.

With this new system no such arrangement would be possible, if that is a bad thing or a good thing I don't know.

 

So basically this suggestion forces all members of clans established clans to compete for energy. This leaves out a lot of levelers and other bots who aren't competing for energy out of the clan concept unless they are able to outscore the members of their clans or kick all NCs.

Would there be a possibility for clans to have a setting established where they can choose to turn on and off NC? It would have to come into effect for the following month and not just mid-month.

In terms of activity, there would be a lot more bots to attack. No bots in any clan would safe.

In terms of dumpers, this would be a lot more effective. So technically Arcane could have all their dumpers in a single clan generating EPH instead of many clans. Although the downside would managing a large treasury.

@DNM, only top 20 ranking members would get a trophy.

 

In terms of activity, there would be a lot more bots to attack. No bots in any clan would safe.

Only if there is a lot of movement in & out if the top 20, but yes I get your point.

 

with no effort, it would be just okay. why would they get the trophies if they did nothing right? but what if that player is scoring hard on his other bot coz he cant score on his main (higher level bot)? he's striving hard to get lots of energy on the other bot to gain trophy points for his main bot at the end of the month.

with the suggested system, the player's main bot wont get a trophy at all. and basically it will negate his effort's intentions and stop playing as a clan member and be just an individual player inside a clan. so for me, this is basically player-based vs bot-based.

if this will be implemented, i dont see any chance for my bot to gain clan related trophies anymore. and might just concentrate on leveling than helping the clan to score. and this will basically torn up clan spirit. i know i really sounded so selfish but we all have motives. for me, i dont care if I needed to score hard on my other bot, just let my main gain the trophies at the end of the month in exchange for that effort im making.

 

Get rid of the 20 player max limit, and NC's. Raise the clan cap to 50 :)

Still keeps clans smaller than bots2, and allows your higher levels to be rewarded.

 

Well, to be honest, so far i see more negative sites of it then positive. Nowadays NCs in competitive clans (i am not talking about dumpers) doesnt change that much each month. So automatic system isnt necessary. But again, im not and probably wont be leader of clan anytime soon.

 

Your opinion is not selfish Lyrad. You are basically saying that as a contributing clan member you expect to receive a reward for your efforts. Removing NCs inhibits this.

I would prefer to keep NCs. They management of them is negligible, that said Jans covers that role ^^.

It is also a safe haven for purely social players & players prepping/repairing their bots.

However Wiggin if NCs are stopping you or making it harder to make updates ditch them :P

 

I think at least for the past few months, we've discussed in Escapism which bots we will have scoring in active slots. It would be inefficient to have 30 bots being dumped on and only the top 20 count towards the clan total.

The only place where I guess we could see a difference is if someone disagreed with the active player slots. But there is Arcane and Eternal who could probably use active scorers.

 

And I think there is more prudent updates needed to be made.

 

Totally hypothetical here, if a clan was winning a month and someone wanted a platinum trophy for no effort, they could arrange with the clan leader to be included at the end of the month and get it.

With this new system no such arrangement would be possible, if that is a bad thing or a good thing I don't know.

Since the bots actually making the achievement would now be getting the rewards, this seems like a good thing to me.

Would there be a possibility for clans to have a setting established where they can choose to turn on and off NC?

No, because the benefits of this change are a simpler system for players and for me (in terms of code). Keeping NC as an option eliminates that benefit.

So technically Arcane could have all their dumpers in a single clan generating EPH instead of many clans.

No, only ranking members would receive EPH, so that would not change.

with the suggested system, the player's main bot wont get a trophy at all.

On the contrary, the bots earning the energy will get the trophies, which arguably makes more sense. High level bots being able to be competitive and earn trophies isn't something that was ever really intended. If you can idle your way to the top and this proposed change breaks that, yes it's going to upset some people in the short-term, but I think this is a change for the better in the long-term.

Get rid of the 20 player max limit, and NC's. Raise the clan cap to 50 :)

The actual member cap is orthogonal to the issue at hand, but as mentioned in OP, the 20 (ranking) member cap is designed to promote competition and is unlikely to change anytime soon.

It is also a safe haven for purely social players & players prepping/repairing their bots.

This would arguably still exist in active clans with at least 20 scorers. You could simply not score in order to stay safe. If it would help make this pill easier to swallow, I could add in an option to reset your monthly energy (rather than forcing you to leave/rejoin) so that you can move into the safe haven mid-month.

However Wiggin if NCs are stopping you or making it harder to make updates ditch them :P

That really is the biggest motivation for me. I do think the simpler system that would result is a pretty big bonus too though. NCs are weird and hackish.

I think at least for the past few months, we've discussed in Escapism which bots we will have scoring in active slots. It would be inefficient to have 30 bots being dumped on and only the top 20 count towards the clan total.

That's a good point, but if you have, say, 22-23 bots gaining energy, this system allows you to lose a few of those members mid-month with little penalty.

And I think there is more prudent updates needed to be made.

This came up while I was working on tournaments. It will be easier to implement if I can get rid of NC.

 

Everything I got to say about this idea of yours Ender is highly cynical and bitchy but you are intent to push through with it anyway so I don't see a point in spelling out the mistakes in it. It's your game, go ahead and do what you want.

 

I kind of like this idea, though like others have stated, the status quo of the game has been established in managing "active" members vs. NC members and swapping End-of-Month for the new month beginning.

 

Oops, clicked submit instead of re-edit the post. Someone delete that if you can..

So technically Arcane could have all their dumpers in a single clan generating EPH instead of many clans.

No, only ranking members would receive EPH, so that would not change.

What? How is member number #21 meant to catch #20 if they are essentially getting 1500 energy per day for free? I would assume all members generate EPH throughout the month, even if it doesnt affect the clans monthly

 

I don't really like the idea. It will also make it harder if you want to switch out one of your scorers with a new bot for whatever reasons. Also, I've got a personal clan just to store bots and have some NC's in it because I don't want them being attacked for energy. I like to keep my bots grouped up.

This also seems like more work for you then what it will be worth. It doesn't exactly change things for the better imo, it's just going to change one problem into another.

 

This will remove a lot of power to dumping. Instead of 60 EPH, the dumpers would have 20 EPH for the rest of the month since you won't be able to reset their energy offset. In this way, it wont be needed to maintain a positive ratio of the dumpers anymore.

Since my scoring rely on dumping, I don't like this idea. The main reason I prefer dumping instead of scoring on a low level bot is that I hate to be always switching target. You have to be with very attention to when the energy of your opponent finishes so I can't do other things while playing bots (like see a movie). I guess the PvE system would solve this though.

 

With this taking place how would the dumper clans work? In saying that I mean you dump a bot then N/C then re rank it too take its EPH back too 60? Also if this change takes place I think that all bots in the clan should generate energy all month then at the end the top 20 scores are the once that count :) , if not Lobster is against the change! And will properly sell up and no longer donate

 

We were thinking the same thing Jorge :P

 

lobster and all his rants :P i do agree with what lobster is saying

 

Dumping would still be a very good strategy. However, to have the same power, you need the triple of the dumpers. The advantage is that you don't need to win dump them anymore, reducing their management to only switching the equipments.

 

It's always felt like a hack and it gets in the way everytime I write new code, so I want to kill it. Thoughts?

C'mon people, anything that helps Ender code stronger better faster should get full support, even if it messes with an established system, you know you'll find a new way to faux the system soon enough.

 

Still sounds like a big pain in the ass too me :P

 

Would it help straighten up your code if "NC" became a property of people's profiles, instead of a dedicated clan rank? Kind of like an "away" setting people could check in their workshop.

 

As far as dumpers are concerned, you would just have to completely leave the clan and rejoin with them.

 

I don't like this idea.

-1

 

my point exactly lobster how would dumping work? its a huge part of the game too most of us as thats where we get most of our energy from.

so we all would gain 20 eph even if we raise our energy offset ^ 1.00?

 

Anyway, I was playing a game on my tablet where the clans (well, guilds) allowed an unlimited number of people to join, but only counted the top 30 for ranking purposes.

You weren't updating bots?!

 

So instead of just having dumpers go NC back to a ranked spot to reset the 60EPH you'd actually need to un-clan them all make a new clan and put them all in that clan for them to get 60eph?

 

i already pointed out my opinion on this. so kindly consider it if ever.

and if you really want to apply this suggestion (since you're too eager in it and this is your game anyway), announce it a week before and implement it at the start of the month. so that I wont have to play much like before and waste my effort (which will defeat my purpose on doing so). thanks.

I rest my case.

[khael]

 

^ No matter what we say now it looks like ender will go and implement it i personally hope its a good change because if not ill be outta here too and reduce the time i play bots

 

i already pointed out my opinion on this. so kindly consider it if ever.

and if you really want to apply this suggestion (since you're too eager in it and this is your game anyway), announce it a week before and implement it at the start of the month. so that I wont have to play much like before and waste my effort (which will defeat my purpose on doing so). thanks.

I rest my case.

[khael]

I completely agree. Because you don't play the game please take a little longer to consider what this means and how it will effect the players. If it's too much of a change people will stop energy scoring.

 

or even stop playing the game altogether port thats what ender must take into consideration

 

^ No matter what we say now it looks like ender will go and implement it i personally hope its a good change because if not ill be outta here too and reduce the time i play bots

I agree, if it's not a good change I know I'll stop scoring and probably just focus on leveling, then again I enjoy scoring so will probably just be a lurker until a good change (if its not good) comes back.

 

Alot of people will be just probably lurking around to see when tourneys will be implemented and if its not tourneys its PvE

 

I just don't see why Ender wants to change a system that has been working and players enjoy? It baffles me.. People have put a lot of time into this newest energy system so why change it?

 

I like it. I think clans are meant to fight and the players in them should be willing to fight.

I only wish that everybody would get energy but allowing the clan leader to select who counts toward total clan score and who don't, for example with a little red and green button behind everyones name. Or is this too much the same as how NC's currently work?

 

I think threatening to quit over a proposed change that you don't know the ins and outs of is a little childish. Dumping won't cease to exist anymore, all those dumpers you've acquired would still be useful, but their potential energy may be 1/3'd. Dumping is a little too strong as it is, a "normal scorer" literally cannot rival someone with 50 dumpers in the energy rankings as it is, which is a little unfair.

 

what if this one will be implemented alongside the PVE system? so that the high level bots will have a fair fight to be in the 20 slots.

 

lol. I think most people were complaining about clan ownership ranking and unranking their dumpers to reset their EPH.

With this change, they would have to kick and rejoin their dumpers which is even more work.

 

if its a little unfair and they dont like it they should make their own dumpers and exactly shoy as if its not boring and annoying promoting and demoting a full clan never mind quitting then rejoining

that would also be a great idea if this is to change implement PvE then leveling bots like myriad,neps and so on have a chance to still gain their trophy's

 

Yeah i totally agree with Leader, its not unfair anyone can make dumpers if they want too. Its not our faults that we put in more time and dedication then others

 

not only that but those people like lobster that spend alot of money on bots will be annoyed its a waste of time playing the game when the energy system isn't ever gonna be one thing its changed a few times now and looks to change again

 

Haha yes.. i forgot too add $$$$ ive been playing since December 21st and in that time i would have donated to ender at least $800+ Usd, and Spent about $700 Usd+ buying bots and stars of other players. I believe i have a right too state my opinion

 

anyway fish you virtually have quit already with everything of yours up for sale so dont point the finger because we are saying we would go inactive or even quit due to awful suggestions

but i cant judge the suggestion till its here so im gonna sit back and wait for ender to implement it and see if its a good change or not

 

ALL HAIL THE ALMIGHTY LOBSTER!!!!!!!! Period.

 

Dumpers are already a pain in the ass. Levelling, camping (+recamping), win dumping and demoting/promoting are already enough chores, without adding kicking and re-accepting bots on to that list. Not that I think that Ender particularly cares, as dumping has never been encouraged, but from a personal perspective this would make life slightly more difficult for me, not to mention the loss of monthly plats/energy trophies on this bot.

Anyway, I'm still very much confused about this proposed suggestion. When are the top 20 scorers determined? After scoring for a day, a week, two weeks, the previous month? Will the non-scoring members still be able to gain/lose energy? Will their monthly energy return to 0, just like NCs? If they can still gain energy by fighting other bots, what if a non-scoring member overtakes a scoring member in monthly energy?

Although I don't understand a whole lot about this suggestion, the main gist I got from reading this thread is that it doesn't benefit anyone but Ender. That doesn't automatically make this suggestion a bad one, but if it is possible to alter the NC system such that it becomes easier to handle new upgrades, then that would probably be the best approach, judging from the number of negative comments in this thread.

 

Judging by the feedback from the player database everyone's against it. Especially those players whom have put time into the game (and tons of donations)

Ender will do what he wants, but in the short term it's going to piss off and dwindle an already small player database.

 

I'm with Myriad, that I don't completely understand how this will fully work.

Right now only the 20 active clan members gain energy, idle or otherwise. With this how would that work? Would all clan members gain energy, idle or otherwise, or would only the top 20 members get the idle energy and the rest have to fight to gain energy to reach a top 20 spot to earn idle energy?

Furthermore, at the end of the month what happens to the non-top 20 clan members? Does their monthly energy just disappear, even if they're 21st place(This is only hypothetical, where their clan has the other top 20 spots)? Does that mean they spent an entire month of wasted effort and don't receive the monthly energy trophies as well as not getting the monthly clan trophies?

 

I think we need more info. A shot in the dark??!

 

ActiveX [197]

So at the beginning of the month, how does that work?

& bots around the cut off point, how or do they generate energy?

Ender [1]Administrator

For ties, it could break on total energy, which would favor more established bots.

Bots at the cutoff point just wouldn't have the benefit of EPH and would have to work harder to make it into the ranking set.

Wiggin also mentions putting in an option for bots to rest their energy midmonth, so that they do not need to leave & rejoin.

Ender [1]Administrator

Clan trophies would be the same as today in how they are only awarded to ranking members. The only change is that "ranking members" is now an automatically defined set rather than a managed one.

so just thhe top 20 will get a trophy

 

I still think more information is needed. Even that last bit of quoting doesn't clear up the monthly energy trophies that would be forfeited at the end of the month for the non-20 "members" of the clan. I understand them not getting the clan trophy, but not getting the individual energy trophy seems like shit, yes?

 

Additionally, if they don't get the trophy, what happens to their monthly energy? Does it disappear and the rankings adjust accordingly?; Because right now NC members don't gain energy, therefore they don't have monthly energy ranks, but this would remove that and have the "NC" members gaining energy.

 

but you are intent to push through with it anyway so I don't see a point in spelling out the mistakes in it

On the contrary, I'm here soliciting feedback, aren't I?

What? How is member number #21 meant to catch #20 if they are essentially getting 1500 energy per day for free? I would assume all members generate EPH throughout the month, even if it doesnt affect the clans monthly

As mentioned previously, the #21 without EPH would indeed have to work harder than the #20 with EPH. Or maybe all bots could receive EPH, that maybe isn't the end of the world. It would probably require an opt-out for EPH though, which would alleviate some of the other concerns mentioned.

Also, I've got a personal clan just to store bots and have some NC's in it because I don't want them being attacked for energy

This would work out nicely with an opt-out EPH, see above.

This also seems like more work for you then what it will be worth. It doesn't exactly change things for the better imo, it's just going to change one problem into another.

As mentioned in the OP, the primary motivation of this is to simplify the code and the game.

Since my scoring rely on dumping, I don't like this idea.

I think this highlights one of the problems with my soliciting feedback like this. I have much different motivations than players. This might work out better in a smaller group where the members don't have personal stakes in the outcome. That being said, I appreciate the honesty and I don't mean to pick on anyone with this comment, just thinking out loud.

The main reason I prefer dumping instead of scoring on a low level bot is that I hate to be always switching target. You have to be with very attention to when the energy of your opponent finishes so I can't do other things while playing bots (like see a movie).

That's a good point, and something I've been wanting to address. I too liked training in bots2 for the same reason. Ideally, in bots4, you would (1) be able to see how much energy your opponent has left and (2) be able to switch between targets with less hassle. I should work on that because it wouldn't be too hard.

I think that all bots in the clan should generate energy all month then at the end the top 20 scores are the once that count

Not an unreasonable idea, see above.

Would it help straighten up your code if "NC" became a property of people's profiles, instead of a dedicated clan rank? Kind of like an "away" setting people could check in their workshop.

Possibly. Getting rid of the gray clan name when your bot is NC might help too.

No matter what we say now it looks like ender will go and implement it

Where did you get this cynical notion? It's not constructive and I wouldn't be soliciting feedback if I wasn't going to pay attention to any of it.

or even stop playing the game altogether port thats what ender must take into consideration

If I waited until reaching a consensus among everyone before making changes, there'd never be another update. There will always be people that don't like certain updates and there's not much I can do about that other than try to make things the best I can overall.

I just don't see why Ender wants to change a system that has been working and players enjoy? It baffles me.. People have put a lot of time into this newest energy system so why change it?

Did you read my OP? It outlines the motivation pretty clearly.

I only wish that everybody would get energy but allowing the clan leader to select who counts toward total clan score and who don't, for example with a little red and green button behind everyones name. Or is this too much the same as how NC's currently work?

Yeah, probably too similar.

I think threatening to quit over a proposed change that you don't know the ins and outs of is a little childish.

+1, see above. Player churn is absolutely inevitable, so threatening me does little but irritate me and not want to engage in these discussions.

what if this one will be implemented alongside the PVE system? so that the high level bots will have a fair fight to be in the 20 slots.

Fair question. I wanted to focus on tournaments first because I imagined PvE being more controversial. You see how much activity this seemingly innocuous suggestion has stirred up? :)

when the energy system isn't ever gonna be one thing its changed a few times now and looks to change again

I think this is a little over-dramatic. What I'm proposing is a very minor change and while it does have some small implications, I don't see this as completely reworking a system.

Haha yes.. i forgot too add $$$$ ive been playing since December 21st and in that time i would have donated to ender at least $800+ Usd, and Spent about $700 Usd+ buying bots and stars of other players. I believe i have a right too state my opinion

Is this just an FYI or were you at some point made to feel that you didn't have the right? I very much appreciate the donations, but fail to see how that is relevant to this discussion.

Anyway, I'm still very much confused about this proposed suggestion. When are the top 20 scorers determined? After scoring for a day, a week, two weeks, the previous month?

At any given point in time, a clan's monthly energy would be the sum of the top 20 monthly energies. There's no daily/weekly/etc. re-ranking; it would be dynamic.

Will the non-scoring members still be able to gain/lose energy?

Yes, and possibly even EPH; see above.

If they can still gain energy by fighting other bots, what if a non-scoring member overtakes a scoring member in monthly energy?

Then they would enter the ranking set for their clan and count towards rankings.

Although I don't understand a whole lot about this suggestion, the main gist I got from reading this thread is that it doesn't benefit anyone but Ender.

The original motivation stemmed from a simplified codebase, yes, but I definitely feel the game too would benefit from this. NC seems like a silly thing to be managed and it was a hack from day 1 to allow larger clans.

judging from the number of negative comments in this thread

This is pretty much status quo for these types of discussions. Those that are positive or ambivalent are far less likely to join in than those that see themselves personally losing out on something. That brings me back to the point about there being very different motivations in this discussion: I'm trying to design the best game possible; others are trying to game the system for their benefit. The end result is a lot of unconstructive comments.

Judging by the feedback from the player database everyone's against it.

See above.

Would all clan members gain energy, idle or otherwise, or would only the top 20 members get the idle energy and the rest have to fight to gain energy to reach a top 20 spot to earn idle energy?

See above. Not totally decided, but I'm actually not against the idea of allowing all bots to gain EPH.

Furthermore, at the end of the month what happens to the non-top 20 clan members? Does their monthly energy just disappear, even if they're 21st place

Yep, it gets reset to 0 just like everyone else.

I understand them not getting the clan trophy, but not getting the individual energy trophy seems like shit, yes?

I don't see why non-ranking bots couldn't get individual energy trophies. The "non-ranking" aspect would only refer to how they're included for clan ranking purposes. Everything else would be the same.

 

I don't know how too quote up anything that was said or anything like that. But Ender when I said about the $$$ and I deserve too have my opinion that was based at Fishwick not you

 

In all fairness to the people saying "oh he's gonna implement it anyway" you do seem to have plenty of interest in this, Ender. Plus the fact you suggested it and are somewhat defending the idea does make it seem like this will be changed one way or another, regardless how against it people may or may not be.

Just saying what's on my mind, I don't really have any other comment on the idea itself.

 

In all fairness to the people saying "oh he's gonna implement it anyway" you do seem to have plenty of interest in this, Ender. Plus the fact you suggested it and are somewhat defending the idea does make it seem like this will be changed one way or another, regardless how against it people may or may not be.

My thoughts exactly, this is the only reason that I had dicussed "implementing it anyway".

 

Let's keep this thread constructive and to the point. Post and participate when you've got:

• a better idea
• questions or suggestions how it could work
• foresee consequences that haven't been mentioned yet

 

I think this can work if:

• Everyone generates EPH, but you can turn it off
• You only get the plat if you are in the top 20, too easy to cheat the system otherwise, sorry Lyrad, maybe you have a suggestion about this? as it would be very unfair to you
• Everyone can score energy, and it adds to both their monthly and overall energy scores, but anyone not in the top 20 of a clan simply won't affect the rankings, and wont receive the clan trophies (still get individual trophies)
• You can turn EPH on and off from that specific bot (resetting), allowing dumping to continue and the resetting of EPH being slightly easier (a toggle in the workshop)

 

In all fairness to the people saying "oh he's gonna implement it anyway" you do seem to have plenty of interest in this, Ender. Plus the fact you suggested it and are somewhat defending the idea does make it seem like this will be changed one way or another, regardless how against it people may or may not be.

I'm not denying that I have an opinion, I'm denying that I'm not open to outside opinions. I wouldn't have started this thread if I wasn't interested in hearing them. It's unnecessarily cynical to conflate my responding to inquiries with wanting to "implement it anyway". If I'm understanding correctly, the alternative would be for me to drop the subject as soon as anyone raises any objection.

Let's keep this thread constructive and to the point. Post and participate when you've got:

• a better idea
• questions or suggestions how it could work
• foresee consequences that haven't been mentioned yet

+1, that's really the point of this thread.

Everyone generates EPH, but you can turn it off

I agree, this is starting to look like the best balance.

You only get the plat if you are in the top 20, too easy to cheat the system otherwise, sorry Lyrad, maybe you have a suggestion about this? as it would be very unfair to you

Agreed. PvE energy may be able to help with the latter.

Everyone can score energy, and it adds to both their monthly and overall energy scores, but anyone not in the top 20 of a clan simply won't affect the rankings, and wont receive the clan trophies (still get individual trophies)

Agreed.

You can turn EPH on and off from that specific bot (resetting), allowing dumping to continue and the resetting of EPH being slightly easier (a toggle in the workshop)

I'm less concerned about preserving dumping as it exists right now, which I understand is the motivation for a lot of the responses to this thread.

 

Everyone generates EPH, but you can turn it off

+1 I like this because yes it does seem like the best balance.

 

so every bot in the clan gains energy throughout the whole month? but only the 20 with the highest energy get counted towards the end of the month total? will this be how it works from the first minute of the month?

 

so every bot in the clan gains energy throughout the whole month? but only the 20 with the highest energy get counted towards the end of the month total? will this be how it works from the first minute of the month?

Well this is my understand and someone correct me if I wrong:

• All members gain energy but the EPH and be turned on and off.
• The highest monthly energy of 20 bots at anytime will be counted towards the monthly energy and then the final score.

 

same as what Ender had said above, PVE or any other system that makes it fair for the high level bots to compete with the low/mid level bots.

if the EPH will be changed back like before (the eph varies, the higher the level, the eph gets bigger), then I think it would be sufficient. but i doubt that would happen as the 60eph system now has its own purpose and helps the game more.

Another thing is "Everyone generates EPH, but you can turn it off". that sounds good given that all the members are active and will turn it off after discussions on who will be in for the 20 spots. but if they're inactive and surely the option remains on, it will still be a disadvantage to us high levels. just one other bot to attack it and it wins, their energy will be higher than the cumulative value of 60 eph even if they are inactive for the whole month.

making dumpers up here is so hard. and if you say that just attack anyone to get their energy, surely it's obvious that the higher level is stronger. so no matter what I do, I cant get enough energy to be at the 20 spots.

if the system changes now while there's no definite way to make it fair to all, then all the high level bots in big clans will surely be at the disadvantage. even if we're only few in numbers, we're still players here dedicating our time and effort.

[khael]

PS just an idea with a bit of bitchin. sorry for that!:p and I cant seem to expand my idea but I know you got my point. hoping it has some sense in it.

 

Well this is my understand and someone correct me if I wrong:

• All members gain energy but the EPH and be turned on and off.
• The highest monthly energy of 20 bots at anytime will be counted towards the monthly energy and then the final score.

Yep, that's an accurate summary of what's currently on the table.

 

Agreed. PvE energy may be able to help with the latter.

What is PvE energy?

 

I think it makes sense that all members, 'scoring' and 'non-scoring' gain EPH. Otherwise, at the beginning of each month, it will basically be the top 20 bots with the most total energy that will get the EPH, and any new players/bots will be forced to score before they can generate their own EPH. Maybe the EPH doesn't make a big contribution, but it's not very inviting for new players to see some idle bots gain energy while they are forced to fight for their energy.

 

Btw, regarding this:

Everyone generates EPH, but you can turn it off

Would this be a clan leader/owner option, or would it be restricted to the owner of the bot in question (like a reset button in the workshop)?

 

I assumed it would be for that player in particular to toggle, no reason a clan owner should need to do it, though ender said he's not concerned about keeping dumping as it is.

 

What if you own a clan of bots that you don't want to get attacked for energy and you don't feel like logging in each one just to turn off EPH? Besides, I think it makes sense to allow clan leaders a bit more control over who potentially gets the top 20 spots in the absence of demoting players to NC.

 

Yeah that's true, but there should definitely be an option on an individual basis too as someone may not want to wait for their owner to come online to demote them.

 

What if you own a clan of bots that you don't want to get attacked for energy and you don't feel like logging in each one just to turn off EPH? Besides, I think it makes sense to allow clan leaders a bit more control over who potentially gets the top 20 spots in the absence of demoting players to NC.

Perhaps the clan leader can check a third box (as opposed to on/off) to allow whatever the user sets. That could also be the default option.

 

I'm less concerned about preserving dumping as it exists right now, which I understand is the motivation for a lot of the responses to this thread.

I think that people want an advantage to dumping than using whores is all. Right now they have that. If it were reduced in any way people would probably focus more on whores. In fact this entire situation is kinda overblown, as back in bots2 we had unlimited members at one time and whoever joined was part of the clan race no matter what. This is just a separation of say having a 100 members scoring and having 20 scoring and 80 "participating". I do have a couple of suggestions though:

1. If these people have a chance at participating then the clan tax should reflect that. Could we perhaps go to a system like before where you weren't charged double your treasury for an extra 5 people? Doesn't have to be a super-radical amount, just say 1.5 times every 5 members or maybe just base the treasury off of each members level? I like the 1.5 times per 5 members more because it reduces the amount of low levels joining en masse in a clan.

2. How will total clan energy work? If I have 20 main members fighting but 40 more trying to get into those top 20 spots, will their energy be reflected in the total energy? Since they are not opted-out of the EPH like an NC would be their contribution should count for -something-. An example would be a person gaining 100k energy but not getting in the top 20. Say they then get in the top 20 next month but go back into the other 40 next month. He got 250k in the top 20 month and 100k in the off month. He has gotten 450k energy for his clan and is still participating. Would only the 250k be counted like now(since he wouldn't have been able to participate in the top 20 and be an NC) or the entire 450k in the total clan energy?

 

What is PvE energy?

I haven't shared all the details, but it's essentially a system for gaining energy from training bots. Search around on the forum for more details.

I think it makes sense that all members, 'scoring' and 'non-scoring' gain EPH. Otherwise, at the beginning of each month, it will basically be the top 20 bots with the most total energy that will get the EPH, and any new players/bots will be forced to score before they can generate their own EPH.

That's a good point. Established bots would always dominate at the beginning of the month whether you want them to or not, which sounds like a hassle for large clans. It's sounding like there's a lot of good reasons for all bots in a clan to gain EPH (with the ability to opt-out), so I think that's the direction we'll go.

Would this be a clan leader/owner option, or would it be restricted to the owner of the bot in question (like a reset button in the workshop)?

I see this being restricted to the owner of the bot.

What if you own a clan of bots that you don't want to get attacked for energy and you don't feel like logging in each one just to turn off EPH?

I think that's an acceptable level of hassle for managing a fleet of bots. It would be a one-time setup cost if, for example, you were setting up a clan for tourney bots that you didn't want to gain energy. You'd turn off EPH once and be done with it.

If these people have a chance at participating then the clan tax should reflect that. Could we perhaps go to a system like before where you weren't charged double your treasury for an extra 5 people? Doesn't have to be a super-radical amount, just say 1.5 times every 5 members or maybe just base the treasury off of each members level? I like the 1.5 times per 5 members more because it reduces the amount of low levels joining en masse in a clan.

I don't remember and can't find why clan tax raises so quickly after 20 members, but I'd appreciate a link to the history if anyone can find one. I think the subject of tax warrants its own thread though (it's complex enough and can be done independently of the changes proposed in this thread), so please start one if you'd like to pursue this more. I'm not against the idea of bringing down taxes, but I'd want to know the history before acting.

How will total clan energy work?

I envision the proposed changes only affecting monthly energy, so I think it would work pretty much the same as it does now. If you are bot #21, your monthly energy won't affect the clan's rank, but it will affect your total energy, as well as the clan's total energy.

 

Considering all the things that have been worked through and brought up throughout this thread, I think we can conceivable do away with NC as long as certain aspects are granted such as everyone gains EPH & individuals have the option to opt out of gaining EPH.

 

As Nos said everyone gaining EPH, and the ability to toggle on/off seen to be good compromises.

I saw a mention of variable EPH. Would that becoming back to try to give the higher level bots, not necessarily all of us near 300&+ but those over 250 or so that are making use of the higher level dumpers, a little bit of an even playing field since there wouldn't be as many high level dumpers? That would seem to broaden the range of competative bots a little bit which would make more people feel included. Also let it be ok to be a higher level bot without the penalty of giving up the energy race. In total this could increase the number of higher level bots giving something more closer to a bell curve instead of something like this: http://i.stack.imgur.com/cOtoK.jpg

Then when the addition of PvE arrives those variable EPH's could be curtailed some or gotten rid of maybe.

It looks like this suggestion would benefit from pairing up with PvE since both high and low levels could be included at the same time without an interim solution being employeed.

 

Here's the quick history of NC for those that don't know it: In the beginning, I wanted the clan race in bots4 to be more competitive and thus made the clan member cap 20 in order to keep the barriers for participation low. Some people didn't like this restriction because it made it hard to have social clans, alts in clans, and so on. NC was introduced to address this: non-competiting members that didn't count towards rankings or the main member cap. Anyway, I was playing a game on my tablet where the clans (well, guilds) allowed an unlimited number of people to join, but only counted the top 30 for ranking purposes. This got me to thinking, why can't NC be like this? Is there any reason for it to be explicitly managed instead of automatic? Off the top of my head, I can't really think of any downsides. My theory is that NC is as cumbersome for clan owners/leaders to manage as it is for me to code around. It's always felt like a hack and it gets in the way everytime I write new code, so I want to kill it. Thoughts?

I hear complaints and see good remarks. Bots has changed over the year and we all have over come and found away to make the changes work in our favor. All i have to say is change happens. Do like did before when the energy system changed before. Find a way to adapt and over come. IF it doesnt work out and ender sees its causing more issues then maybe itll go back to what it is already now. A game only grows by trial and error and this is what itll be. a trial. Im sure if things dont go as planned ender would be willing to change it back. Dont let one change make you leave or threaten to leave. His last energy update to the system it is now got the same response and now look. Everyonse found a way to handle it and is dealing with it. Doesnt ever hurt to give change a chance. I saw lets jsut see how it rolls and if it doesnt work then we go from there. Dont like it then dont like it. Ill still play because i enjoy the game and am willing to give changes a chance. So what will it be?

-rithy

 

im ok with the change

 

Great, it sounds like we have a consensus then! In summary:

• The concept of NC will cease to exist
• A clan's monthly energy will be the sum of that of the top 20 bots
• All bots will gain EPH by default
• Individual bots can opt out of receiving EPH

Thanks for the feedback everyone, this was a useful thread. I'll note that the last two bullet points were not things I came up with on my own, so I think this has shown that with the right approach and attitude, these kinds of threads can have a positive impact on the game. :)

 

Can we expect these to take affect within the foreseeable future?

 

As he want's to get rid of it to make coding other things easier I'd say this would be next, and relatively fast.

 

well it should be the start of the month, right? i believe a month should be played on a set rules

 

Yeah I highly doubt it will be ready for tonight, it may simplify future coding but it's a big change he won't have ready yet. Gives him a month to do it :)

 

Individual bots can opt out of receiving EPH/

So this means leveling bots say like kemper level 188, dont have to remove from the clan and doesnt have to gain eph? Cause that was my only concern was leveling bots that dont score geting hit cause of the no nc.

 

I compeltely messed that up Lol. stupid blockquote.

 

Thanks for the answers to my questions Ender. I'm fine with the entire new setup you mentioned, can't see any problems now. Hope it doesn't take too long to implement :)

 

The option of quit/rejoin the clan, although it's more boring to do, would have the same effect of demoting/promoting that is used now in dumping, so my problem was solved when someone pointed that option out.

I didn't understand very well what this option to toggle EPH on/off will do. It will work as demoting/promoting to NC now? If you toggle it off you will reset your energy to 0 or simply stop gaining energy leaving you with the energy you had? I think it will reset to 0 but I want to be sure. When you toggle it on again, your energy offset will be 1.0? I suppose yes if the energy is resetted to 0, or no if it isn't.

 

I'm not sure for timing. The catch with doing it now is that this affects the end-of-month script for giving out clan-based trophies. I will be away on vacation when July rolls around, so I'd rather not try something new for the first time while I'm on the road. I'll think about this.

Regarding timing within the month it's launched, I'll try to aim for earlier than later in the month, but it shouldn't have any affect on rankings, should it? The only potential unwanted change it could have is that bots that are not currently gaining energy will start doing so.

As for the EPH toggle resetting your energy, no, I don't see it doing this. It would be an EPH toggle and nothing more. This means that yes, you could turn off your EPH to inflate your energy ratio. Maybe that stat should go away though, I think it's confusing and not sure how useful it is. Probably a subject for a separate thread though.

 

you really think that shitload of bots that will start gaining energy, thus enabling more targets to some, will not have an effect in ranking?

 

The only potential unwanted change it could have is that bots that are not currently gaining energy will start doing so.

Many NC-members are quite inactive, and wouldn't notice the change. When you're going to implement this, you could actively 'opt out' everyone who's currently NC.

 

Many NC-members are quite inactive, and wouldn't notice the change. When you're going to implement this, you could actively 'opt out' everyone who's currently NC.

I agree with this 100%

 

That sounds reasonable, Jans. And unless I'm overlooking something, that tweak should truly make this a no-op in terms of rankings, so I don't see why it needs to be scheduled for a certain point in the month or require a warning before doing it.

 

Does this mean clans will get extra ranks? Which would be nice ;)

 

I was thinking the same thing.

 

Yeah, getting rid of NC will actually make it much easier to add additional clan ranks due to the unfortunate way I'd decided to implement NC, so ask again once some time has passed with NC being removed.

 

so if this is implemented i know 20 bots will count as a scoring position and the others wont

using escapism as an example what happens if your owner of a clan is a high level like myriad? will he automatically gain a spot in them 20 places available at the end of the month or not?

 

using escapism as an example what happens if your owner of a clan is a high level like myriad? will he automatically gain a spot in them 20 places available at the end of the month or not?

do the higher ranks in the clan such as the owner and then possibly deputy get preference to be included in the 20 that are in contention or is it a clan of 30 free for all, where its the 20 who have the most energy simply win the rewards.

my prediction of this is that clan numbers will be reduced if leaders of the clan are not included in the 20 that are considered scoring. it will have to be somewhat organised with players being active and organising in advance to turn off the eph which was suggested.

 

Leader has brought a good point. I want to hear Ender's opinion.

 

I don't think rank should matter when determining the "top 20 spots" including the owner spot.

 

well the owner spot gets a separate trophy so how would the George Washington trophy be selected? its for the owner of the winning clan per month..

 

Interesting corner case. I think I'm inclined to agree with Nos (User Name). The owner would still receive "led a clan to..." trophies like George Washington, so that stays the same. I guess what changes is that there can then be either 19 or 20 of the "member of a clan that..." trophies awarded per clan. 19 if the owner is in the top 20, 20 otherwise.

 

Is this going to happen before the end of the year?

 

I think this is a great idea. Perhaps to address the issue of higher level bots not getting the monthly clan plat you could create a new monthly trophy for most trains or most donations to the clan treasury. That way only the top 20 in the best clans will get trophy points for scoring and higher level bots still have a chance at getting trophy points each month without having to score.

If you do a PvE system you could also make it kudos based to target it at high level bots. It could be a toggle in the workshop that devotes kudos gained from training to go towards energy instead of your purse or clan donations. The bot could get 1 energy per every 200k kudos (this number would have to be tweaked for balance) so a blitzes bounty buff would be just as effective as dark energy. This would also make the PvE energy only feasible above a certain level or intelligence.