This thread is here for me to point at when I inevitably catch the next person cheating. What is cheating? Well I'm glad you asked! Here's a noncomprehensive definition that should cover most of it:
Anything that automates gameplay in such a way that you could walk away from your computer and continue playing where a normal player could not. Anything that gives you an unreasonably unfair advantage over other players.
This is potentially incomplete, so use common sense. If you find a loophole in the way I phrased this, I'm not going to give you a pardon. If you're wondering whether something is legal, it probably isn't. If you really have to know, ask here and I will tell you.
Some examples:
You use a script to automate your training while you sleep. This is clearly covered by the first rule. You use a script to immediately snatch up items from the showroom after refreshes, but you only use it while you're actually playing. This is covered by the second rule. You use a script that tells you your exp/hour. This is not breaking a rule because anyone can calculate this, you just do so in a more convenient matter.
Honestly I don't think the grey area is that large here, so just use your best judgement and face the consequences if you don't. When in doubt, ask first. If you don't ask and you get caught, you're not going to be able to say you didn't know after the fact.
And the punishment if I catch you:
- The bot you cheated on is locked and reset, trophies deleted.
- All your other bots are locked and reset, trophies deleted. Bot buyers beware!
- All stars purchased/owned are forfeit.
- Public shaming. I will make a forum thread about you and drag your name through the mud.
- Public outing. If you were masquerading under a pseudonym and I can determine your true identity, I will reveal it.
- Public evidence. I will reveal what you were doing to everyone, with some details omitted that let me keep my upper hand over other would-be cheaters.
Also be aware that I am aim for (and currently have) a 0% false positive rate. In other words, I only act on ironclad evidence, so you don't have to worry one iota about being labeled a cheater if you're not doing anything wrong.
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Nice guidelines wiggin.
But odd place to place it, wouldn't Questions have been a better place or even documentation.
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Thanks good point, I moved it. And yeah eventually the rules will make their way to the documentation, but I wanted to get something up short-term in the meantime.
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Good. I'm sick and tired of people saying "There aren't any rules posted."
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I'm sick and tired of people saying "There aren't any rules posted."
+ fucking 1.
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wouldn't you second rule go against rivan? 500k+ and i believe the next person in line has less than 200k?
clearly unfair advantage that he has
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This issue has been discussed to death Wurd. Move on.
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its a question since he posted rules. now you shut the fuck up and move on.
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Please curb you aggression.
Again, Wiggin has given his views on this. Dead subject. Move on.
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aggression? lol you're funny. now please shut your mouth whore, as i was asking Ender the question not you, peasant
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Successful troll is successful.
:\
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Clearly civil conversation is beyond you Wurd as you have to resort to aggression & name calling. Please refrain from acting so within the forum.
I'll say this again dead subject. Move on.
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you kids say troll all the time yet none of you knows what it means do you? didnt think so. stick to a vocabulary that you know what each word means.
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That is the trick when talking when talking to a troll, if you give him a real response he will have accomplished his goal. But if you call him a troll he tries all the harder to troll while we get the lulz.
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but yet you dont even know what a troll is.
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Since wurd is obviously beyond civil communication or reading comprehension
I'll leave you with a link to the definition of a troll.
http://bots4.net/profile/7750
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let me guess its my profile right? how original. same thing as saying, oh i know what a troll is, i looked it up in the dictionary and your picture was next to it. you guys are so cool, let me tell you.
oh wait i lied
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so when it says in the rules that if u keep training or killing why afk does that count if i pay my daughter £1 for 8 hours why im at work to do it for me she only 6 at moment hehe ;)
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I suggest that in the future in this forum we replace the word "troll" with "skipper".
You skipper.
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+1 to DNM
Glad to see some rules set in stone :)
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As mentioned Wurd, that topic was discussed extensively. The ruling was that it is not against the rules:
http://bots4.net/forum/7/2104
I also request that you show others a bit more civility in the future please, especially in what's meant to be a purely informational thread.
And to freakster, enslaving your six year old daughter to train is not cheating, but maybe illegal depending on local laws. YMMV.
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hehe just a thought thats all muhahaha joke:D
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Venegance Rivan <-- player or bot ? 22h per day he's playing bots and taking all energy ? hard to beleave...
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Bot even replies on forums where his name is mentioned. Must be an advanced copy.
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Let's test that hypothesis: 'Rivan'
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lol, script posting in :p
-Rivan
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All the grey areas seem to be covered?
Both rules are in a grey area...
Haha, I fucking kill myself.
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There's no grey area with the first rule. I don't think there's much grey area with the second rule and I'm happy to clarify if you're not sure of something.
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i think they meant the text was in an actual grey area (the quote box)
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Thats exactly what i meant haha.
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That means it's time for bed for me. :)
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Not that I'm going to use anything other than the EXP calculating script, but would it be cheating to use a script that assigns 'Fight again' and of the what-not as hot keys so that you simply just have to press a key on your keyboard to make training/fighting again quicker?
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that type of script is fine.
in fact there already is one here
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^ I know where to find it, but it just raised question weather it is allowed or not. But thanks for answering my question.
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All of these Emanuel scripts are allowed to use in this game.
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automation is considered cheating.
clicking a hot key is not as you are still interacting manually with the game.
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Which means there is technically a small loop hole I'm guessing?
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no, not a loop hole.
instead of clicking a mouse you click a letter/number. same thing different gravy.
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No. If you do nothing, your bot doesn't fight. Therefore it's perfectly legal. It's just another way of clicking the link.
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Automating gameplay is not allowed, personalizing gameplay is allowed.
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Yep, Emanuel's script has the seal of approval.
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i know none of u prolly care, but i think clanscore caching to yourself is kinda cheap, where u can have so many of your own bots give u cs. where one person jst playing can get 5 k cs, and a clan score whore gets 40+ k. i might b exagerating but i doubt it. i have sum ideas on how this could b solved, but if ne one cared it prolly woulda been takin care of allrdy. * shrugs * jst wanted to throw it out there.
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if u think about it same thing was always happening on bots2 even if it was different scoring type. So dont see how this is under the cheating post sense ur allowed to use multi bots
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- shrugs * im too tired to argue it tonight, lol. its an easy enough problem to solve, and even on bots 2 it was possible to b a top 100 bot while jst being a player. im not worried about it, like i said jst wanted to throw it out there. i think the game would b more interesting and competitive. but now that i think about it im prolly wrong and alota ppl prolly jst b pissed off if they couldnt b all badass in a simpl way. * shrugs * prolly jst complainin. im playin from my cell, lol.
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dumping is a technique that is not new to bots4
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i know that and most all other players know that too. maybe i jst need to make a better bot.
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The bounty of the harvest is usually, as a rule, in direct proportion to the amount of seeds sown.
Also, if you think it is easy, think about this:
Gathering energy directly: 1 click = 16-24 energy
Gathering energy using dumpers: 3 clicks = 16-24 energy.
1 click to gather
2 clicks to pass it to your main bot.
Not to mention the maintenance of your dumpers armors/kudos.
Also, why did you post about this in this thread? What you are describing is not against the rules.
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as posted, " curious then ask." thats why i posted this comment. and yes i think dumping iz easier. how long do u think it would take u to hunt dwn the same CS? i jst wanted to see what ppl had to say on the topic. go figure i get dumper replies. i dont dump and still have to be online an hour a day to manage top 100. im not worried, and im not complaining. jst wanted to know what ppl thought, but i discoverd that it sounds like all im sayin iz , blah blah blah, lol. i know that dumpers are more dedicated than i am and i prolly could have gone without posting ne thing. lol to late now
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Only skimmed the recent comments, but dumping is not in violation of game rules. I've not hid the fact that I'm not a fan of it, but that doesn't mean you can't do it. The system should be designed in a way that it's not as beneficial.
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You should allow the attacker to steal more energy as opposed to what you gain from winning a battle you defend. This way the lower level dumpers can't transfer as fast as someone who simply attacks people on their main energy bot.
It'd also make it more beneficial to attack people even if you only win like 70% of the time.
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You should allow the attacker to steal more energy as opposed to what you gain from winning a battle you defend. This way the lower level dumpers can't transfer as fast as someone who simply attacks people on their main energy bot.
I lol'd at this, but I clicked on your profile and I understood. Try fighting someone other than shitty 0.00 bots and you'll understand a little more about energy. At least fight someone who will give you a loss, then check the numbers, and you will be enlightened. I don't think you've ever fought a non-whore bot. Try it.
Then you'll understand why your suggestion was so funny. Hahaha.
It'd also make it more beneficial to attack people even if you only win like 70% of the time.
Win 70 out of 100 = 880 to 1320 energy profit.
Win 50 out of 100 = 400 to 600 energy profit.
Is this not beneficial?
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I attacked plenty of decent bots during the beta at different level ranges and it wasn't worth the time. I could spend just as much time attacking myself with whores and get the energy three times as fast, possibly even faster considering the length of the fights.
At higher levels I can understand it being worth it since there's less targets, but anywhere from 20 all the way to like 120 I'd say it's just a non optimal use of time to attack regular bots.
And sorry, when I replied with my last post I completely forgot this wasn't in suggestions lol.
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Oh sorry for the double post but I forgot another point.
Attacking normal bots also levels you pretty fast if you're an active energy scorer (assuming the normal bots have normal ratios). Although that's more geared at levels > 80 or so.
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The thing is, the thing you were suggesting already exists. Try attacking someone with which you have a chance of losing and check the numbers.
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So you actually do steal more energy from better bots? I don't want to gain levels right now, so I'll just ask; How much energy(ish) do you get per fight? Cause fighting whores gives me 16-20 each time.
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What I've noticed is that 3 or 4 turns can be 16, 4 to 5 can be 18 and so on. I've only gotten 24 from long fights a couple times which really doesn't make it worth the time.
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16 to 24 a win.
8 to 12 a loss.
Like I said, 100 fights with a 70% win rate would, on average, net you about 1100 energy gain.
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Oh so it's pretty much the same then.
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Remove whore clans and punish ppl who make em, please, correct me if im wrong but they are all over the place, some clans / ppl im not going to bring names in here but it seems to me they rape all those towards a lvl where there are no more, reset or start over with another account to do the same, perhaps different persons but to make my point, where is the fun / honour in that, done it myself, guess im too late on most the rape bots, they give none, not going to lower myself and make myself some, but to win as of today, you almost have to, they must have loads of cash to from those rape bots etc.. adds it all up. im out and just had to let ya guys know, personally for me, this is not the way to go.
peace.
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you'll never stop whoring
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who are you to say such a thing, oh yeah, right, just an ignorant troll, please stop make me laugh will you ;D
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I'm glad you love my ignorance, especially since I've been playing this game for years. bots2 was the perfect example of how whoring and dumping will not be stopped. It's a tactic that when used right leads to neps 1mil a month.
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loving wouldnt be my choice of words, a tactic / taking disadvantage, whatever, i wasnt even refering to neps either, perhaps in your delusions, you just dream on kiddo.
guess i've made my point, im outta here.
peace.
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neps was an example of dumping. he's got like 900k this month
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Dumping is not cheating, it is rather an abuse of the system. The goal of any month (from a clan perspective) is to win the month. To win a month you must receive more energy than the opposing clan. The ability to gather energy is not just affected by activeness, but by availability of targets / energy amounts on targets (unlike CS where given most "top" clans had virtually unlimited targets, and clan-score itself was unlimited. So to earn large amounts of energy you need to be active, have numbers of targets, and be able to keep those targets stuffed with energy. What is the most efficient way to do this? Have one, two, or three clans of "perfect" bots able to attack upwards and donate their energy towards one, or two bots. These "dumpers" must also have the ability to KEEP their earned energy from bots at their level or else they become useless. So, dumping isn't cheating, as you're simply using the energy transfer system to its most efficient and safest way. Are you using the system in a way it was not meant to be used? Yeah, you are, I don't really like having to have 20 answerer bots. This whole giant funnel system is a bit annoying from a user perspective but it is a hell of a lot more reliable than fighting whores, who may or may not even have energy.
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sorry like most i stopped reading after "abuse of the system", u wrote wayyy too much... on the start page when u first start playing it says there is no correct way to play.. so it's not abuse, it's just playing the game... bazinga
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there is no correct way to play
bazinga indeed.
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cheating are soooooo booooooring why should any one do that???
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so i know it has been a few years but im guessing auto refresh still is in violation of the rules. :)
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^ Has the post been editted? Looks the same to me.
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It was edited for grammatical purposes, secretly. It had to be done this way so as not to arouse Alan's suspicion.
Looks like it worked to me.
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Some long overdue changes:
- Locked/reset bots no longer have visible profiles.
- Locked/reset bots are now omitted from hall of fame search results.
- Locked/reset bots are now omitted from past month bot results in the hall of fame.
There are still record-related some places they can show up, such as tournament results. Those will be a bit more work to scrub out, but expect that to be done as well with due time.
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Would it be possible to just have names striked out rather than not be visible at all? I don't like the idea of giving the names any recognition, but personally I value the documentation more and would like to see it in past months.
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I generally agree about wanting to create documentation of what actually happened (as opposed to a rewritten version of history), but in this case, I find myself leaning more in the direction of not wanting to give any recognition at all. I'm inclined to believe these sorts of little marks on the history books actually are somewhat of a significant reward for cheaters that keep returning to the game ("look at me, I'm unstoppable, I did it again and here's the proof of it"). Open to other opinions though.
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Oh, and in case it's not clear, there is a record that there had been a bot holding that rank in the results, but the identify of the bot is gone. The row is blank, e.g. ranks 1 and 8 here:
http://bots4.net/history/2016/5/bots
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Keep up the good work Ender I'm sure there is many more to be erased =]
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rip flo. good job ender! :D
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Poor Flo, he almost sold his bots ðŸ˜
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Did he know he was going to get banned? I almost bought his dumpers too...
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Flo was a good dude too wtf.
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This certainly comes as a shock to me :(
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And as a result of i shared most of my dumpers with him theyre gone. Cheers flo, fucking bullshit. Payed for something to get deleted. So good.
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sound nice, fools
anyway whos next? Pirates Arrr...
you need to change your mottos to Cheaters Heaven lol
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I love how 90% of people on here make a new bot to have a dig at someone or something on the forums. Have some balls and don't hide like a little bitch.
But I agree I'm just as shocked, flo was so nice!
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Roumors say that you aint got balls to admit you levelup people so shut da fuck up
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You know what they say about rumours, but fact is you still ain't got any balls to show yourself.
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Wow, I go idle for a few days and this is what happens? Way to go, Ender. It's great to see some long overdue bans doled out.
I would personally prefer to be able to see who cheated as well, however if the names are going to be censored then I think it would make sense to fill in the individual monthly rankings in the hall of fame with the leftover bots. So if #1 cheated, then #2 should be relisted to #1 instead of having a blank box above them. I get that the bots outside the top 100 may not be known and therefore could not move up into the listings, but realistically the only rankings that people care about are the top 10-20 ranking spots anyway. This way, there would be no obvious sign of the month being marred by cheating, except that the list might include <100 bots.
One thing that I think would also help to deter cheaters is altering the clan end of month scores/rankings to accommodate for removing their individual cheated scores from the history books. So if cheater x scored 1 million energy and his clan won by 500k, then cheater x's clan should be deducted 1 million and the rankings corrected such that his clan would place second by 500k instead. Certain cheaters seem to particularly get off on the fact they were able to prevent another clan from winning the month through cheating. Even if there cannot be a redistribution of trophies to the rightful winners, this would be at the very least justice of a kind.
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Darnit Ender.
(Now maybe instead of banning people we can get some new features?)
(Btw, banning people and not replacing them with new people is what you call a "losing strategy" on a multiplayer game)
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Banning confirmed cheaters is not a losing strategy. Cheating on a game is a losing strategy. I'd rather play any game with 30 legit players than 30 legit players and 3 cheaters. You're showing your irrational bias again, Zal. Just because Flo was in your clan doesn't mean he shouldn't have been banned.
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It's not that irrational. If a multiplayer game is upheld by mostly cheaters (Modern Warfare 2 is a good example of this) and most of the legit players have left, then banning everyone left on the game isn't going to resurrect the game. It would then be in a "may as well shut it down" state. What I mean is that if Ender bans people and does not replace them with new people through advertising etc., then things just stagnate regardless. So instead of 33 people playing the game, we have 30 people playing, yes, but if we never get 3 new people of better quality then things just go downward or stay the same. It's just how multiplayer games work. Multiplayer games themselves are irrational.
I'm not defending Flo btw, he did what he did. But maybe changing the game might help things more than Ender hopping out every 2 years saying "BOO, BYE CHEATERS" then going back to doing nothing for 5 years. It's very floR like. It pisses off both cheaters and non-cheaters that want change.
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One thing that I think would also help to deter cheaters is altering the clan end of month scores/rankings to accommodate for removing their individual cheated scores from the history books.
This would be a larger change. I'm not completely against it, but it would require some thought about how to implement. I'll consider (and probably solicit feedback elsewhere).
(Btw, banning people and not replacing them with new people is what you call a "losing strategy" on a multiplayer game)
This is kind of silly and I'm probably being trolled, but I want to be transparent with my thought process here given everything going on lately: not getting rid of cheaters is a losing strategy. People don't want to play a game where they're competing against cheaters. Or at least I don't, and I think a lot of people share this sentiment. I certainly don't want to run a game where cheating is rampant. It erodes trust in the long-term. I got some very loud and clear signals from players' whose opinion I trust and respect that letting certain individuals remain in the community for this long was really not an okay thing to let happen. I'd have reacted the exact same way in their shoes.
If a multiplayer game is upheld by mostly cheaters (Modern Warfare 2 is a good example of this) and most of the legit players have left, then banning everyone left on the game isn't going to resurrect the game.
There are a few issues with this sentence:
bots4 is not upheld by mostly cheaters. This is a popular meme lately (driven largely by Alan and Ville being allowed to stick around, which I admit is completely my fault), but you do not have access to the same information I do. Only I have this information. I really don't want to tip my hand at all here, so I'll just say that I have pretty high confidence that cheating is not as widespread as many believe it to be. My goal going forward is to be more on top of cheating so that the mindset gradually shifts back to accepting that cheaters are dealt with in a timely manner. Resurrecting the game isn't the primary goal of banning cheaters. The primary goal of banning cheaters is to make the game fair. The goal of making the game fair is to not drive away legit players. Banned cheaters vs. resurrecting the game isn't a zero-sum situation. I can both ban cheaters and advertise the game, add new features, etc. Pretty much the only thing you said that I agree with is that the game needs to be promoted more. I fully agree. And sure, there is an opportunity cost if I focus some attention on cheating, but at this point, I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. At the end of the day, this is a one-man shop and I have to do something, so there will necessarily be an order in which those things are done.
But maybe changing the game might help things more than Ender hopping out every 2 years saying "BOO, BYE CHEATERS" then going back to doing nothing for 5 years. It's very floR like. It pisses off both cheaters and non-cheaters that want change.
I really don't appreciate this sentiment and you're now testing my patience. I'm also keenly aware that the majority of other small game forums don't tolerate regularly shitting on admins like this. Given our limited time in this world and the fact that there are many other enjoyable ways I could spend my time that result in less excrement being flung in my direction, I'm reconsidering my laissez faire "anything goes" approach to forum moderation where you're free to bash the admin at will.
If you truly want change, then drop the attitude because it is pushing me back to inactivity. Entitled people like you are what have eroded my passion for this game. In the 8+ years I've dedicated to this game (and several more to the bots community with BU), I've tried everything to maintain my sanity, even going as far as a several month sabbatical from it all. Nothing really works because there will always be ungrateful, entitled, miserable people like you (welcome to the internet). You ruin things for everyone. I fully admit that updates have slowed down in recent years, but they have not stopped, and the base upon which I have built this game is solid - I encourage you to take a trip down memory lane 1 and memory lane 2. I also encourage you to dedicate as much time as I have to a singular project and cultivate it for as long as I have, largely for no reward (donations are always appreciated, but 99.9% of my income comes from my "real" job). Until you've walked in my shoes, fuck off.
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Also, it's worth mentioning that I do recognize that the majority of the feedback I've gotten as a result of the recent bannings has been very favorable and I really appreciate it. This is encouraging for me and motivates me to stay involved. It's always an ongoing struggle to not let trollish vocal minorities occupy so much headspace, but Zal's response triggered me for whatever reason, hence my wall of text.
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Amen.
You are forgiven your outburst Ender. Its a natural response towards professional vinegar-pissers like Zal.
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Ender you need to turn out Zal-immune. When I read this
(Btw, banning people and not replacing them with new people is what you call a "losing strategy" on a multiplayer game)
I felt an urge to post. Then, I breath in, relaxed and said to myself, it's Zal, there's no point to reply to him. This is my technique to be Zal-immune. You have to find a way to do it too :)
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I just feel that removing the identities of past cheaters could be considered a disservice to legitimate players that like to refer to the history books, just as much as it is to the cheaters themselves. Personally, as soon as I saw a ban wave I wanted to look back on affected months/clans but my memory doesn't serve me well enough to recall who/what bots were in those, now empty, placements. I'm also looking forward to some new clan-clan trash talk due to housing cheaters (Eternal, lul).
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I'll go against the grain and say I like the profiles being hidden entirely. The whole point is to remove any recognition they falsely acquired, striking it through still gives them that. Maybe a button at the bottom of the page that toggles the names on/off?
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Maybe even just a hidden page/url (like HoF losses) to see the less filtered data. I'd say unfiltered but having a strikeout instead of plain names would be nice for easier reference.
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I like the idea of a hidden option that allows cheater's results to be viewed. By default, they'd be omitted, but for those that are really interested in seeing what had happened, there'd be a way to do so. This approach seems to strike the right balance of removing recognition while not actually permanently removing data. I'll look into this.
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This approach seems to strike the right balance of removing recognition while not actually permanently removing data.
As a datahoarder who gets anxiety thinking about all the data around the world that disappears every day, I approve of this.
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Locked/reset bots are now omitted from past month bot results in the hall of fame.
For the record, this change has been reverted[*] as part of introducing the TARNISHED label and needing to facilitate appeals. See my 2024-11-29 22:01:33 post in this thread for context.
[*] Well, strictly speaking, this is v1 -> v2 -> v3 (as opposed to v1 -> v2 -> v1, i.e a true revert). The difference between v1 and v3 is that locked/reset bots now have a red background/border.
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