suggestions

In case you missed it:

http://bots4.net/forum/9/1966

I wanted to start a discussion on how I should handle cheaters. As an online game player myself, I've played games where accounts would seemingly disappear in the night as a result of an admin banhammer coming down. This is scary for legitimate players because it creates the appearance that you can lose all your work for nothing.

On the other side of the coin, if an admin provides full details and supporting evidence for every ban, this becomes a feedback loop for cheaters to improve their tactics. Especially in a game like this, I see the battle against cheaters as very much of an arms race, so I really need any advantage I can get against them and spelling out exactly how I caught someone ruins this.

That being said, I'm leaning towards doing it like I did in the above-linked thread and just throwing the obvious evidence in the face of the cheater. There are kids out there that would sell their own grandmothers into slavery before admitting defeat so I really can't count on them just giving up when caught. That way everyone knows I'm acting on evidence beyond reasonable doubt and there's an added bonus of public shaming too. Plus I'd feel more comfortable instituting a strict zero tolerance policy (this is what I'm leaning towards) if the evidence is available for all to see.

Also, I imagined a court system where evidence didn't have to be shown to the accused and that's a scary thought. Granted you have a little less to lose in an online game than in real life, but I would like to be as fair as possible...

Thoughts?

Zero tolerance definitely. Public name and shame I would also agree to as well as displaying some (not all) evidence. I trust you and wouldn't even need to see the evidence to believe you if you said they were cheating but some people might not feel the same way.

2nd allotrope

also tar and feather their asses

Best is to lock the bot until it is conclusive. If the bot is of high enough level (since there are so few right now) remove it from clan and leave it perma-locked as a target for all.

perma lock is a bad idea imo, deletion would be best if you're sure they cheated....noone should benefit from someone cheating

I agree with Allotrope, have a zero tolerance policy. Also consider a 3 strike system.

First Strike - Player gets blocked for a month.
Second Strike - All players bots get deleted.
Third Strike - Player is banned full time.

First strike: kill cheater's cat. Second strike: perma ban Third strike: killing cheater.

Banhammer in the night +1.

definitely zero tolerance. i dont mind if they get deleted over night without a trace, the only people who would be freaked out by that would be other cheaters i imagine.

i would ban ips tbh as well. fuck cheaters - the lack of punishment is what killed bots2.

If the cheating is obvious, give them one chance to admit defeat/cooperate/whatever else you may wish of them in private, and meet refusal in any shape or form with public humiliation and higher penalties. Evidence is necessary in any case.

This way you can hopefully keep some of the know-how of the detection systems private, and keep people in line without making the forums look like the gallows.

Penalties would depend on severity of the crime, whether the person is a repeat offender or not, and any other relevant details.

first of all i told ender if he's gonna reset my bot, than its better to delete him, in my opinion is not right to delete it... because it's a little script which is really easy to make it, it's not too much bigger then script that zipter used... script is refreshing and it can buy 1 item when it apear in showroom, but he saw that and that's it... there are no rules i can read on bots4 : script for that and that are not allowed...

and if there are no rules writen, this should be warining just like for zipter...

In fairness they are no rules but where does Ender draw the line? By using any form of script it gives you the slight advantage that other players do not have, you could argue that anybody could use the script but that's not the point. Ender is introducing rules to stop some players having advantages over others which makes the game fairer.

Agreed with Viper

If you read the Zipter thread then why did you continue to use your script? o.O

i wrote what i had to say...

if he wants to delete it, then delete them... for me this is not reason to delete them or lock , reset them , whatever else.. i told him i wont use it again, if he see im using it again then he have a really good reason to delete me...

are you a child? do you really need to be told that anytime you create a program that automates an action its cheating? especially when your script is in direct competition of other players since we all share the showroom

im not going to write anything more here... i said all i have to say...

Ender : give me a warning and i can continue with game without anything like that script or delete me right now , there's no other option...

why should you get a second chance? he has good reason to delete you right now.

stop being a pussy asking for a second chance and shit. you made your bed now lie in it cheater.

i said if he wont let me playing then delete me, without lock for 1 month or that shit...

and fuck off dipsy, call yourself a pussy

Ender : give me a warning and i can continue with game without anything like that script or delete me right now , there's no other option...

Wtf is that? Are you trying to say you didn't know that scripts like this are illegal? Don't be a child, step up and take responsibility for your actions. In Ender's situation, I would lock/reset/delete you.

This is FUN.

I knew it, but there's no rules which is can read... I didnt say im not guilty, I am...

I knew it, but there's no rules which is can read... I didnt say im not guilty, I am...

Why then are you whining like a bitch?

Why then are you whining like a bitch?

Yeah, why... Because he is scared to lose all those bots...

Well , no im not scared

~Cos

Locking the accounts is probably better than deleting them, that way it's not the end of the world if a fair player accidentally gets banned.

Also, it would make it possible to have a Hall of Shame.

Basically what has already been said; absolutely zero tolerance, no warnings. Cheating = lock, delete and/or ban. I think it's a good idea to have it announced somewhere. Not just as a 'hall of shame', but so it's clear to players what happened to someone's account. But other than that, you don't owe any further explanation really. Your game, your rules, your call. And I think everyone here has complete trust in your decisions.

Them delete all my bots :) This thread is fun...

~Cos

There shouldn't be a second chance in my opinion. At the end of the day, written it not, common sense should prevail and tell you (and any others) that using a script is cheating. Cheating, by definition ; When someone uses a method or something material to gain an unfair advantage over others, in order to excel above them. Basically, if you use a script outside of the obviously allowed things like the bot build calculator etc. then you are cheating. Auto refresh, and Auto buy? That may not seem like a massive advantage to you, and that's your argument. The point here is that you're placing a disadvantage on EVERYONE else. Especially as we have one showroom right now.

Again, I'm not Ender and it's his decision. But in my opinion you don't deserve a second chance. I have the same beliefs with everything in life. Don't do something in the first place, if it's wrong and you could potentially face punishment for being caught.

Common sense is the most valuable thing going into extinction right now. People like you is why they have to label packets of nuts with "Warning: contains nuts"

Sphinx pretty much said what i wanted to say about this.

On the subject of cheaters, both Atreides and Eternal removed Digi's bot from their clans.

Neither of the clans will accept cheaters.

I don't think Digi was using a script just for the showroom. I sent a botmail to Ender over two weeks ago regarding the sheer number of trains that Digi suddenly started to have compared to everyone else. Ender had looked into it and said that it just seemed like a number of people were training the bot at the time.

i'll accept this bot for free, but on another note, Hang, Draw and Quarter someone!!

I'm not sure what to say here, as I had a bot autolocked in Bots2 when I know for damn sure that i had not cheated. That said I'm confident that wiggin's security is better than flor's.

So ye, to answer the question. I'm pretty sure wiggin that you would not act unless you had quite hefty evidence. A private discussion with the suspected transgressor would be in order, so that they have the opportunity to have their say & from there you can make your decision.

I do think your decisions should be published to deter others. No specific details, just a note on the homepage indicating the action you took & who it was against.

I didn't read the entire long thread, so some of this might have been suggested...

1) What do you consider cheating? I'm assuming you mean using auto clickers to advance in levels, gain wins or energy? Any other kinds of cheating or breakage of rules can be dealt with accordingly such as spamming the forum or whatever you might deem against the rules. YOU NEED SOME PUBLISHED RULES WHERE THEY CAN CLEARLY BE READ first.

2) You could be real harsh and ban the offenders ip or delete their bot(s) if you deem it to be a serious offense and auto clicking is serious in my opinion. You could reduce them in levels / wins / energy. Suspend them for a number of days by locking their bot. Or if its a forum violation then block them from posting in the forum...

3) I would post the offenders account name in the forum along with the offense and the punishment, YOU SHOULD NOT present the evidence to them or make it public in the forum. Like you said you don't want them to know how you know or found out what they did because they would just refine their cheats and keep on trying.

Just rule with an iron fist and use your own good judgment. From what I can see and know about you you are a fair and reasonable guy. However you HAVE to be FIRM and if in your own mind you KNOW they are cheating in the game then don't feel bad about kicking their ass from the game.

1) above correction. Strike "first" no need to post the rules first because you have stated many times that clickers and scripts are considered cheating and everyone knows it.

You showed your evidence for this incident of cheating and in my opinion you didn't have to, which was followed by blatant lying. Delete the bot or reduce it to level 1 and let him start over...

Make your first judgment and subsequent punishment be harsh and set the president that you WILL NOT TOLERATE cheaters.

This is your game and you need to send a strong message to cheaters or they will walk all over you and I for one do not want to see that happen.

If you don't want to have to do it yourself then appoint a judge or 3 person panel of people you trust, (I'll volunteer for that duty.) Present the judge and jury the evidence and he or they can rule... I'm a big mouth and I like to write crap in the forums plus I don't like cheaters so you can expect a lot of swift judgments and harsh punishments. lol

I pretty much agree with everything that has been said about zero tolerance.

In the context of this month though, I think Digitron's bot should either be reset to level 1 or otherwise prevented from gaining any achievements at the end of the month. No one deserves to miss out on a Top X achievement in levels or stats because someone was cheating. This isn't just for Xerex, but for anyone who would otherwise miss out on Top 10/25/100 achievements in any category.

If he was deleted, wouldn't that help others get achievements?

That's the idea Alan.

I'd support anything that makes the security of the game better. Even if it means a lack of evidence in the event of the ban hammer.

Also I do NOT support the idea of 3 strike systems, making different degrees of cheating or second chances just because or rule ambiguities.

Cheating in any way shape or form cannot be tolerated and should be punished severely, total IP bans and account deletion. No "hall of shame", destroy all memory of their existence.

Cheating in any way shape or form cannot be tolerated and should be punished severely, total IP bans and account deletion. No "hall of shame", destroy all memory of their existence.

I agree with this. If you cheat, your bots and all you have accomplished are worth shit, and therefore do not deserve to have any impact on the game whatsoever.

This isnt thread about auto clicking because that's bullshit, i used only script for buying/refreshing showroom... well duration of my fights is ~8 sec and i guess 95% of top 10 lvls have at least 13-15 sec fight ?? it's not hard to get 110k trains + 3 person played it...

I like Viper's idea of allowing the person to save face and admit defeat in private. If they really want to fight it though, then the evidence goes public and I do my best to wipe the floor with them.

I also like the idea of publishing a list of punishments so people know what's happened, even for the cases dealt with in private.

As for defining cheating, I'd say anything that allows you to do things in the game without you being at the computer falls under that umbrella, at a minimum. Obviously it's a difficult task to precisely state what is and what is not allowed, so we'll have to see what loopholes this wording allows as we go forward and address things on a case-by-case basis. I think in general though most people know right from wrong...and if in doubt, ask first.

As for punishment, I see no reason to not do complete bot deletion/ban on the very first offense as long as the evidence is clear. I have absolutely no tolerance for players that are only here to cheat because they waste my time that I could be spending writing real game features.

fair enough...

Banhammer in the night +1.

+1

This isnt thread about auto clicking

The threads name is dealing with cheaters? Acs are cheating.

but not from me...

How about an achievement reset also? Can't he get the trophies multiple times now?

Based on some of your responses in this thread and the Marketplace thread, your punishment shouldn't be anything less than a complete reset before the end of the month.

As Saiyan mentioned, your sheer number of trains (Something especially evident ~14+ days ago) is highly indicative of foul play. The fact that you have admitted to using a showroom script is terrible in your defense and does nothing but make you even more culpable. I would implore Ender to look even deeper into your training patterns.

the apache acess logs should tell you whos using bots, milisecond responses are hard to do without a script. just check em every few days. or maybe have a report system where a mod will look into the accused. make a topic for each cheater caught and delete their account from the database, aswell as any other accounts they own (IP logs should tell you that, though be careful because people do share accounts and that would be unfair for some, but i suppose thats the risk you take).

this should also count for exploits and other shit like that (eg. SQL injection)

3 cheers for Ender and his swift and harsh brand of justice. Cheating is cheating and there is no excuse. Using ANY script is cheating. Ender is a man of his word and he is a man that deserves respect. He has my respect thats for sure.

Here's some more evidence for you.

I'm level 81 and I have spent 2 days, 3 hours, 11 minutes, 11 seconds online happily clicking away

Some random guy I picked has been online for 12 days, 36 minutes, 4 seconds. His level is over 100

Ender has been online for 15 days, 22 hours, 50 minutes, 42 seconds WORKING on the game.

The accused cheater has spent 23 days, 8 hours, 5 minutes, 52 seconds online. All of that time may not have been auto click time but a good portion of it has and yet he still denies it...

I'm not saying that is divinitive proof but it seems suspicious at the least. It proves to me that the accused either loves the game to death and he has developed a very sore mouse clicking finger or his script has been working over time...

Case closed.

Just because somebody levels faster than you doesn't call them a cheater.

19 days, 14 hours, 44 minutes, 43 seconds - online from xerex... + when i turned script on bot was online as long as script was on... so my online time is not a big deal, 90% when i was sleeping script was on... bla bla...

And yes, my achievement should be deleted before 1.8

Thats true, but Enders evidence and logs do...

He got evidence for script using, not for auto clicking.. And i wasnt using a/c or smth like that , online time is only cause of script which keeps bot online 24h daily if i turn it on...

Digitron, I don't know you personally but you seem like a basically good guy, maybe you just weren't aware of what you were doing. However. (Ignorance of the law is not an excuse, at least that is what the cop will tell me when I get pulled over in my car for doing something wrong.)

My advice to you is to admit your mistake and then move on. You seem to have said you used scripts in one breath but then denied it in another so I'm really not sure. Also realize now that scripts, any scripts ARE NOT wanted it this game and use of them will be found out and then delt with harshly.

And just because they have a lot of online time doesn't mean they cheat either. It could be played by more than one person. Say for example Me and Kerrod make a bot together. He lives in Australia, I live in the USA. If we play the bot while we're awake it would have a lot of online time. If we found a 3rd person in the time zone that we're both offline we could effectively have the bot online 24/7.

Thanks on that...

Like i wrote Ender on bmail ill write it here: Yes , i was using script and there's no other story about that... I got Digitron reseted and i told ender to delete Digitron and reset/delete my other bots cause i used script on them too...

This is game over for me, bye

I'm not going to keep going on with this and will stop after this. The script using seemed to have helped increase the bots levels more then normal. If it didn't then I have a hard time believing Ender would chose to reduce the level back to 1, so something was up. Ender isn't an idiot, just the opposite, he programmed this game to what it is now so in my book that says he KNOWS what he's doing. The End.

Ok Nosferatu I'm not going to dispute that logic, but your bot that you share with 3 other friends isn't level 165 and it HAS NOT been caught by ender for auto click, script using cheating.

Btw. I have spent most of my online time here in the forums writing stupid crap so whats the point? Thats enough, its over now. Lets all move on. Cheers.

@The Pirate: Just thought I would point out that 'Played time' also takes into account time spent in open and closed beta. As such, it isn't terribly useful as a true indicator of online time. I'm not sure how your argument would have sounded if the 'random guy' you clicked on was this one: http://bots4.net/profile/142/TheCause

Point made. However, either somebody is doing something they shouldn't be doing during all that time and just hasn't gotten caught yet or they don't have much of a life outside of Bots. I'm thinking it's the latter... So in effect looking at time "online" is actually useful for something... Oh well, bla... bla... bla...

Time online can be misleading, I work on a computer alot and keep bots open in the back ground and click when I think of it. Just because someone racks up alot of online time don't mean they don't have a life :P

The only point point I am making is that you can't call a bot a cheating one just because it has a lot of online time.

And I don't have a bot I share with 2 others, I was being hypothetical.