I thought we could start a mature discussion about the the 30 day IP lock ender is considering of putting into the game. (and why I'm against it)
How I see it right now, the issue arose from questionable activity from Rivan that has been adequately covered in previous threads so please don't visit it here. What we need to do is address the the reasoning behind a player doing this.
The reasons I see are:
- High Ratio(looks cooler)
- not enough energy at current level for amount of time played
- attacking bots with good ratios will level you out of range of targets
In my opinion, the biggest problem is that there isn't enough energy to go around at populated levels which can be a good thing because the scarcity of it is the main reasoning behind the energy system(discourage ACs).
However, right now there is no reason or benefit to leveling and in fact hampers you from gaining energy in a clan. I have brought this issue up in threads before and the general consensus was 'people will level up and there will be more targets later'.
Well, sorry to burst your bubble, but there will ALWAYS be more targets pre-100 than post-100. Just based on the fact that it is easy to create a bot and get it to level 50 in a few hours.
Thus, there NEEDS to be SOME benefit for a bot with a greater level to be in a clan. In bots2 it was part of the JansIndex formula. Now, I'm not saying this formula was the best thing since sliced bread but at least it addressed the fact that leveling should NOT be discouraged like it is right now in bots4.
I have suggested before(http://bots4.net/forum/4/1183) that energy regeneration should be based on level and not a flat rate like it is currently. I'm not making this thread to push that idea, but in reality there needs to be a solution the stop the reasoning behind the problem at hand and not just the player behind it.
So, say this 30 day time lock is implemented. Not only will this make it almost impossible to create low level bots(gear prices are insanely high) but it will also stop players from creating bots to feed their main kudos. I know there are times where for the life of me I couldn't find kudos for a piece of gear fighting every single person 5 levels up.
It will also stop people from creating ratio whores(for themselves) which people who are avid bot builds will be pretty sad about.
tl;dr Find a solution for the reasoning behind energy feeding
note; I had PonPonPon playing in HD the whole time I wrote this.
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To those of you not in the know, 30 day IP lock = you cannot attack a bot with the same IP(in the last 30 days for that bot)
Also, Rivan's issue was lower level bots losing on purpose to his high level bot(feeding energy).
Hopefully that clears it without having to read that novel of a thread that is now locked.
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I think that an IP lock of any length of time is a bad idea.
Other things that will be affected are being able to transfer kudos from a kudos whore to a bot you're trying to level and buy gear for as well as being able to fight your own bots for experience and quick leveling.
If people think it gives an unfair advantage in the monthly energy race (which not everyone participates in) then create a lock on the ability to win/lose energy from bots using the same IP and set this up for a month long period of time.
-Shoegazer
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One workaround would be to never log in your main clan bot and just dump energy on it. Will be quite obvious though when someone's got 200k energy but hasn't logged in for the month.. hehe.
I am not for or against anything. I can say though that being able to transfer energy from the lower levels has got me playing more and making more bots. More ways to play is better in my opinion. If we can't fight our own bots anymore I will probably just sell the others I've made and play just my main bot for 30 mins to 1 hour a day (because of lack of targets in the higher levels). For now though I have something to do and I can play for several hours a day on different bots. Pretty sure server activity will decrease with the 30 day IP lock.
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You can always whore your kudos bot and attack an easy target your "main" bot can easily beat. It's what I do because of the reduction of kudos gain when attacking online and I dislike logging off.
That resolves the issue with your "Kudos Whore" dilemma.
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The same work-around can be used for energy.
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And though I rarely out right "rape" myself (except in the old bots2 days where I built whores for my whore clan which was the only way to actually win while playing) I also dislike the idea but very much agree with it.
I dislike the idea because I occasionally like being able to attack my higher level, higher ratio bots to gain levels quicker while I build bots. This is mostly what I began doing towards the end of bots2 days because cs'ing became as boring to me as leveling.
I very much agree with this idea though because it brings about the more important reason for playing this game, to attack others. That's the entire idea of this game. I know that some will argue you can make a "leveling" bot but that was not the idea when this game was conceived, it was to fight others. Anything that pushes people to do that more is a work in the right direction.
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Aye Rivan, it can be. I say this though, if you're that determined then I think you should be forced to do it at that level, rather than be allowed to self-attack your own bots.
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The difference in the time it'd take wouldn't be much. I'd just log 2 bots on at once, this one and the whore, and do 2 whore fights, 1 this bot fight.
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So the difference in time is 50% more PLUS you'd need an equal amount of higher level whores as energy dumpers.
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I'd probably just use two different connections on different computers, one for main bots, one for kudos whores.
Oh I mean I'll ask my friend, who is not me, to do it.
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I'm confused at to why you think this entire "30 day time lock" is targeted specifically at you? Do you feel in your subconsciousness that you are doing something that is wrong? You are attacking my points as though they are specifically at you, they are at the generalized population who play this game.
I say you apparently have the know how to circumvent anything that is thrown at you to help thwart people from doing the game injustice. If that is true then you are obviously not doing anything wrong and have nothing to worry about if he does in fact implement this 30-day IP lock.
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It's not 50% more than what i do now. Basically how it works now is i fight 3 times, run out of kudos and have to train 3 or so times, then go back to fighting. I could fight the whore (any random whore is fine, doesn't have to be mine) until i needed kudos and while my whore is training take the energy. In that scenario it doesn't actually add any time at all.
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Well, I guess these last few posts just prove my original point of the thread.
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I'm against an ip lock.
I never saw an issue with whores or self raping in bots2 & I have no issue with it here.
I can't see how it really detracts from the game. If people want easy targets let them put in the time, effort or money to achieve that. Whoring is NOT an easy option and never has been. The upkeep of whores is a small industry in itself.
As far as I'm concerned the only things that should be illegal is making bots unattackable (not possible at this point I think) & using an automated script.
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Thumbs up on dragonrose' post :p
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It's a dream, inside a dream, inside a dream....
Make it so leveling means something to the clan wars.
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I can't agree with it being fine to do, I just can't.
The purpose of a multiplayer game, is to play with, and against OTHER players.
Excuse the innuendo, but what you're doing is essentially playing with yourself, and getting an advantage. In no game, should you be able to use another of your characters, bots, whatever - to gain any sort of advantage from.
Its a P.V.P . Not a P.V.Me.
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You still have to play with others if you want to steal their energy before taking a dump.
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Stop making me giggle. I´m getting coffee all over the place.
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Time Lock should be 30 days. Attacking your own bots is just wrong. The game is supposed to be against other people, not against yourself.
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But that doesn't make it any less ridiculous.
In the other thread, before it was locked, it was noted that this method should perhaps be allowed simply because of all the work gone into it.
Honestly, since when did that reason have any say in what should be acceptable and what shouldn't ? What if I spent 5 years designing a script to fight for me, even when offline. That's a million times more imporessive! ''Oh it should be allowed, after all, he's spending 23/24 hours of his day making the script in the first place''
I know it's a different issue completely, but my concept is there.
At the end of the day, this method, or scripting, autoing or whatever - it all evidently comes up with the same result ; Advantage.
No disrespect to Rivan here, or anyone else doing this, because to be blunt - there is actually no rule against it, and so I don't class anyone a cheater. But in my opinion, he doesn't deserve this type of advantage just because he's willing to make loads of bots, farm and transfer energy where others wouldn't. If he spends all this time on the game, then why doesn't he focus on making all these bots, and just fighting OTHER players for energy, and keeping it at that ? He clearly has the time, ability and stars to do so if he can do this.
I just don't see where it's necessary to fight yourself ultimately, when you can make these 'whore' bots into energy scorers themselves. That seems a lot more legitimate to me.
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We should be able to attack every bot (in our lvl range) including our own bots.
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Clansize is limited as well as energy. Much better to have 10 bots scoring out of the clan and dumping energy on the one clanbot. If each player does this, the clansize has effectively increased to 200. Also energy is limited so people will go through any means to gather as much as possible. Farming with other bots and dumping is always going to be better as long as energy is limited.
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Is "cause I don´t like limitations" a good enough reason?
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30 day lock in my opinion will just be limiting ways to play the game, I think more ways to play the game without hacking/scripting is a good thing.
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You shouldn't be able to attack your own bots. The best reason for this is because the game is meant to be PVP, but PVE.
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You don´t care much for the training part of the game huh?
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This bot was messed up when I found and attempted freaking. Process of fixing that right now. :)
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I'm against an ip lock.
I never saw an issue with whores or self raping in bots2 & I have no issue with it here.
I can't see how it really detracts from the game. If people want easy targets let them put in the time, effort or money to achieve that. Whoring is NOT an easy option and never has been. The upkeep of whores is a small industry in itself.
As far as I'm concerned the only things that should be illegal is making bots unattackable (not possible at this point I think) & using an automated script.
Not to just go against you, I don't fully agree with this. In bots2, the up-keeping of whores was 10x harder. If your whores reached a certain ratio, obtaining clan score become non-existent, therefor requiring you to actually log on and fight on it to gain more wins. With the energy system that we currently have, this isn't required making the system of "whoring" a completely different sub-context.
The current system removed the ability to make farms for the purpose of "farming" them for energy because anyone and everyone can take it from your "whores" due to the fact we don't have diplomacy.
This that Rivan is doing, from what I understand, isn't a matter of making whores or making easily beatable targets for the purpose of "farming". Rivan made very good bots for their levels. He then rapes all the targets at those levels he can and collects all the energy he can, he then proceeds to whore those bots and rape his main and transfer the obtained energy to it. Afterwards he then unwhores them so no one can fight them.
I am not 100% certain, but I am fairly sure that is what he is doing.
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We are not discussing an individuals tactics, that was pretty much done to death in the other thread.
All my post says is that I am against the 30 day lock but I am nor against whoring or whatever means you choose to gain your energy.
It would be nice to see you actually commit to an opinion nos instead of ripping holes in everyone elses.
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I made my opinion known. I am against and for this. I have good reasons to implement it as well as some that are good to not. I think it would limit the game a lot for some people who don't solely fight others, such as myself or even those that like to train.
As far as "1 persons" tactics, I apologize for stating Rivan out blatantly like I did, but his was just an observation as well as the most current example.
Also, I was just commenting on your post specifically because I had made my side known earlier on a different bot.
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maybe some of you didn't clearly read Sphinx's post, so I'm going to quote it again, maybe you read it this time carefully:
But that doesn't make it any less ridiculous.
In the other thread, before it was locked, it was noted that this method should perhaps be allowed simply because of all the work gone into it.
Honestly, since when did that reason have any say in what should be acceptable and what shouldn't ? What if I spent 5 years designing a script to fight for me, even when offline. That's a million times more imporessive! ''Oh it should be allowed, after all, he's spending 23/24 hours of his day making the script in the first place''
I know it's a different issue completely, but my concept is there.
At the end of the day, this method, or scripting, autoing or whatever >-it all evidently comes up with the same result ; Advantage.
No disrespect to Rivan here, or anyone else doing this, because to be blunt - there is actually no rule against it, and so I don't class anyone a cheater. But in my opinion, he doesn't deserve this type of advantage just because he's willing to make loads of bots, farm and transfer energy where others wouldn't. If he spends all this time on the game, then why doesn't he focus on making all these bots, and just fighting OTHER players for energy, and keeping it at that ? He clearly has the time, ability and stars to do so if he can do this.
I just don't see where it's necessary to fight yourself ultimately, when you can make these 'whore' bots into energy scorers themselves. That seems a lot more legitimate to me.
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It just doesn't make sense that you can attack your own bots. It kind of goes against the spirit of the game. It's very common for online browser games to only allow one account per person too.
As for your specific concerns:
Don't want to level up too quickly - See /4/2126. No kudos/ratio whores - These go against the spirit of the game. It shouldn't be trivial to powerlevel a second bot after making your first. As others mentioned, there would still be creative workarounds available like using intermediate bots.
Side note: As for the difficulty of obtaining kudos in general (and without saying too much), this will be addressed in the next update in which you can spend achievement points. I won't say more than that.
Note that you'll still be able to do these things if you coordinate with a friend. I have no problem with that and there isn't a really a good automated way of preventing it anyway. I think this will make the barrier high enough that most people won't bother and the few that do will have the social aspect of the game slightly improved from the need to work with others.
What's important to me is that the clan race is about PvP. This is an online multiplayer game after all. In bots2 it was really a PvE race. Note that I want to expand the PvE side of bots4 eventually, but not through people creating dummy bots to beat up on.
And I recognize that some people like the skill involved with managing a fleet of bots, maintaining equipment, and so forth and I recognize the extra dimension this adds to the game for them. I like extra dimensions...just not that particular dimension (when it's done with the intention of beating up on them yourself; I'm fine with people creating lots of bots). I'll add other dimensions. :)
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Side note: As for the difficulty of obtaining kudos in general (and without >saying too much), this will be addressed in the next update in which you can >spend achievement points. I won't say more than that.
huh?
The issue is energy, not kudos.
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Probably why it's a side note :)
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Draoi mentioned and I added a bit to it. That's probably why he mentioned it as a side.
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I don't like the idea of me personally being punished for fighting my own bots fair and square without transferring like Rivan did.
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That's the entire point. It isn't fair for you to fight your own bots, whether it be fair or not.
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To be honest any time lock will limit the players that aren't as dedicated, and the players that are dedicated will not be affected. That is about all, your making it harder, yes, but in the end anyone determined enough, and lets take clan rank as a measurement as determination, I do not see a stop to the complaining, specifically the complaining that will come towards us.
The game at this current moment is a bit overcrowded in terms of the people who want to get energy, and underpopulated in terms of bots that are available to fight. If for example we would in theory do a complete 100% not able to attack your own bot thing, the game would loose 20% of its current bots I would believe.
Anyway (HI NOS), it doesn't matter much, implement it, but mark my words that the complaining will not stop, in essence, your asking the clans to coordinate better, and to be honest, without bragging, I have known some of the players in the clan for 5 years, whereas current top 5 clans only Rapture have old enough players to match Eternal current ones. Say for example I already know the passwords to 5 bots in my clan and they do not care cause I wont do anything bad to their bots. But once deletion, bot reset and other things are implemented you might see lots of sabotages going on simply because your asking people to share their passwords now. Commonly.
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Oh and I didnt notice Atreides is top 3 now.. I thought Seven Stars was still in their place ;)
-Sera
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I agree, no matter the steps you take in any case you will always have at least one person who isn't satisfied.
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