suggestions

There have been many PayPal problems over the years:

• http://bots4.net/forum/7/3230
• http://bots4.net/forum/9/4935
• http://bots4.net/forum/9/5175

In short, things get complicated when someone buys a star and trades it away before the transaction falls through because now someone else has the star, so it's not a straightforward matter of revoking the star. Things get even more complicated when that star has been traded more than once before the transaction falls through. Things get %!@# more complicated when there are 130 of those stars being traded multiple times.

So how do we fix this? The most obvious solution I see is to introduce a one-time timelock for permanent transfers, i.e. stars must be at least X days old to be eligible for permanent transfer. The exact number of days I'd have to wait until being able to declare a transaction as "safe" likely varies from country to country, but 90 days should be sufficient to cover most cases.

Is that reasonable? I've spent too much time dealing with these problems over the past couple months and I currently owe PayPal more than $1,000, so something needs to be done. A timelock on permanent transfers would protect myself and other innocent traders and temporary transfers would still be available for rotating stars amongst a player's bots during the one-time timelock period.

Thoughts/suggestions/concerns?

Thats's shit for us many many many people who donate the right way too get benifits, waiting 90 days would be just bullshit

So those that purchase stars from you would only have to wait x amour of days

Which is along time if you are using 90 days

Is that reasonable?

You owe them over a thousand bucks? Hell frickin yes that's reasonable.

I think you guys might be misunderstanding what I'm proposing. You wouldn't have to wait X days to receive the star; you would have to wait X days to be able to do a permanent transfer of the star.

I don't think a time lock is reasonable at all, I don't buy stars, but what if I was solely purchasing a star to pay someone for a service? They can only be paid 90 days after completing it? That time period is terribly long in the bots world. It will probably increase buying stars off other players and less directly from you. I was going to say create a way to 'gift' a star to someone, but that doesn't fix the problem here.

I think you just need to take a no bullshit approach with this PayPal stuff. If your money is put on hold, so is the buyers account(s). I'm still very suspicious about yoloyo, as he wanted to spend 230 dollars on my bots, PayPal cause a dispute, and he suddenly has no interest in buying them anymore. Surely if he wanted to spend that sort of money he would renegotiate solving the dispute.

TL;DR: Don't let scammers get away with it.

Yeah i got that part ender, but im a big trades man. And if i can't move the stars permanently for x amount of days would be shit

I think you just need to take a no bullshit approach with this PayPal stuff. If your money is put on hold, so is the buyers account(s).

I don't think this addresses the scenario where the star gets traded to someone else before the transaction is reversed.

Yeah i got that part ender, but im a big trades man. And if i can't move the stars permanently for x amount of days would be shit

One idea for dealing with this is to have a rotating set of un-timelocked/matured stars. You presumably have a set of stars for your own use, so if you wanted to trade a star to someone, it would just be a matter of trading one from your un-timelocked/matured pool and buying a new one to replace it.

Another possibility is to have a set of whitelisted buyers that are exempt from this timelock. The exact criteria for determining who gets whitelisted would need to be worked out, but the idea of it is that if you are someone who has bought a lot of stars and those transactions have not been reversed, you are exempt from permanent transfer timelock.

That sounds alot better ender :) if that was the case im happy

Seems like white listing will only help people who probably have older stars unlocked already

You could create some sort of trade interface where two users put up an offer and it keeps track of it. Say two stars for two bots, and the game will perm the stars and change email/password to the bots at the same time, making a safe trade. But more importantly it keeps track of that, then if stars are disputed, the user has the option of reverting the trade and getting his accounts back. I appreciate this doesnt help stars paid for win dumping out other services. And it would be a ton of work.

And yet another alternative would be doing away with the idea of permanent transfer timelock altogether and instead introducing a warning system for traders. I'm envisioning a color-coded system that tags stars based on their age. For example, a star that's less than 30 days old could be red and be flagged to be considered risky to accept in trade, less than 90 days yellow, 90 days or more green.

And it would be a ton of work.

Yeah, that's the kicker with that. An automated trade handler would be cool/useful, but is way beyond the amount of work I want to invest for this problem.

im glad we can't move our own stars about (perm) at this moment in time because that would be a kick in the backside wen something like tis happened

I think the 90 day (or x-days) amount of timelock, will bring no good to us players. I know this is to protect you, but i hope we can find another way to do this.

Maybe you/we/paypal can come up with a system, where you can track the stars back to a transaction, and be sure it is safe.- when the transaction is considered safe, the star is unlocked for perm transfer? I don't know paypal very well. How do you know when a transaction is completed and not reversable?

When i buy stars, i buy them via creditcard, and can't see how i can reverse that deal. Do you consider those deals safe?

Not much of a suggestion here, but questions i find relevant.

I hope we can find a solution to this problem - which i see as a huge problem - that both make you and us happy.

You can reverse/hold your credit card. Call them and tell them not to take the money as you reversed the deal or something like that.

Anyways.

I think, as soon you know it's complete. The start can not be transferred for 2-3 days.

I'm with Fishwick on this. I'm soon to buy stars so I'll be trading lots.

I know this is to protect you

It's as much to protect players too. My inbox is full of requests from people that their trades be reversed, traded bots reverted to their original condition, and so on.

when the transaction is considered safe, the star is unlocked for perm transfer? I don't know paypal very well. How do you know when a transaction is completed and not reversable?

This is what the one-time timelock is meant to accomplish. There's no way to guarantee a transaction is safe, but after a certain amount of time it becomes harder.

When i buy stars, i buy them via creditcard, and can't see how i can reverse that deal. Do you consider those deals safe?

Absolutely not. As Alan mentioned, you can file a chargeback with your credit card company. How long you have to do this likely varies from country to country and has nothing to do with PayPal, hence the complexity.

I think, as soon you know it's complete. The start can not be transferred for 2-3 days.

2-3 days is not enough. Some of the transactions that got reverted were from over a month ago.

Oh i see.

I'm just worried about the whole bots-marked. It's a Big part of the game, and one of the things that motivates. Also the ones who Can't afford or Want to buy stars, have the opportunity to build and sell. Which again, keeps the game running.

And i guess you Want to keep it as a 'donation' feature. - not a direct purchase?

And i guess you Want to keep it as a 'donation' feature. - not a direct purchase?

I'm not clear on the difference. Uncle Sam sees these as direct purchases.

And to make it clear why this is as much to protect players as it is to protect me, the alternative to the things I am proposing is a wild west free-for-all: when someone rolls into to town and their transactions fall through, all stars get deleted, no questions asked. Take a look at this thread to see how people respond to that though.

And to demonstate the problems with a "zero tolerance policy" for any kind of PayPal problems, consider this. Suppose I decide that if anything happens with your transactions, bots get locked/reset and stars get revoked. What happens if you are legit but your payment just got flagged for whatever reason? What happens if someone else bought the stars on your bot. What happens if you traded the stars?

Cranky old man, that Sam.

But i i'm just asuming, that if you buy a Star directly from you (Enders' store, with your terms and agreements), it Will be a lot harder to take back transfered money.

But i i'm just asuming, that if you buy a Star directly from you (Enders' store, with your terms and agreements), it Will be a lot harder to take back transfered money.

That's where people are buying stars from now. PayPal offers no seller protection on services/digital/intangible goods because there can be no proof of delivery.

I dont think Paypal's 'dispute period' varies per country. Buyers have 45 days to open up a dispute. And if a transaction is fishy (credit card fraud, hacked account, whatever), Paypal will probably investigate within those 45 days as well.

The suggestion of a whilelist sounds very reasonable.

• The first time someone buys stars, he will receive them immediately, and can transfer them temporarily, but not permanently - until 45+ days have passed
• After that, the person is whitelisted and future purchased stars can be transferred directly

what if I was solely purchasing a star to pay someone for a service?

Buy it for their bot, not your own.

I think you should take every possible route in order to protect yourself, your game, and the players playing.

I absolutely agree, that you should do everything to protect us players, and yourself.

You owing money, because of a couple of assholes, just is'nt reasonable.

But i just hope that there could be another solution, then the timelock. I think it will slow down the marketplace.

Isn't there some way you can make us pay for stars as a purchase, or something that isn't refundable (as easily)?

I have a feeling donations on PayPal aren't refundable, Im not sure what impact that has in terms of protecting the person buying the stars but it may be a route worth looking into.

Besides that some kind of whitelist seems like the best way of ensuring this problem doesn't happen again as a compromise, rather than a timelock for all players stars upon purchase.

But i just hope that there could be another solution, then the timelock. I think it will slow down the marketplace.

it wouldnt slow down the marketplace, it would come to a complete stop. not to mention people actually buying stars. i personally buy stars and they are perm transfered within a week normally.

and before someone comments saying this bot hasnt bought stars, ive owned a fair amount of bots that i used to donate on

I support the idea of a one-time timelock for permanent transfers on stars while allowing for temporary transfers.

Combine the ideas. I really like the idea of a pool of stars on your bots. Where by you cannot transfer newly purchased stars but you can transfer older stars you own.

90 days seems a bit long for a time lock, but I understand the concern (making a large amount of my yearly money off selling on Paypal myself) I would go with the a 45 to 60 day time lock. If your credit card hasn't been investigated or flagged within two months there shouldn't be a problem.

In addition to creating a pool of stars, you can create a white list of users who have proven themselves to be responsible. If you've bought stars over a certain amount and a certain time ago (say 50 dollars worth of stars over 120 days ago) then you should be white listed as an "acceptable star service provider".

Being an A.S.S. would allow you strink the timelock from 45-60 days to a week or two weeks. Maybe it allows you some other advantage like a platinum trophy or something small.

Sorry for the double post, but allowing temporary star transfers would be a nice thing. The trading marking can handle this, let us face it. A month is a while to wait but we're talking about thousands of dollars in revenue Ender believed he had and is now poof. There should be a way to protect him from future damages caused by such events.

+1 for implementing A.S.Ses

Having spent the day thinking this over, I'm leaning away from one-time timelocked stars because people seem to really not like it. "Focus on the user and all else will follow", as the saying goes. The timelock idea also doesn't address the problem of what happens if someone somehow does manage to revert a transaction outside of the timelock period. Same goes for the version of that idea with a whitelist; someone could always go rogue for a big cashout.

I think I like the idea of a color-coded warning system. Star age would be exposed (it currently is not) and you'd be able to look at what someone is giving you and be like "whoa this star is red and was born 3 days ago and I've never heard of this guy, maybe I should think twice". Or at least you'll be aware of the risk involved.

Honestly it's hard to feel like I really lose something when someone reverts a transaction. Yes it's annoying, but I have enough money in my personal account to cover it and at the end of the day, it didn't cost me anything to produce the stars (ignoring the cost of building/maintaining the game). My real concern is untangling the resulting clusterfuck when those stars get traded. Hopefully a warning system will be permissive enough to allow people to go about their business and not get in their way, while also giving enough of a signal/warning about potentially risky transactions.

+1 to warning system.

Perhaps show the original star owner as well.

Good idea showing the original star purchaser.

Will this information for the stars only be shown in the star management page or will it be publicly displayed somewhere?

Just the star management page.

Another idea, pardon the pun, but evolving on the original timelock suggestion. Perhaps make the timelock a one time thing for a bots first time purchase. So say I buy a star on this bot, X days after that purchase I'll be able to perm transfer the stars. Any stars purchased during that time will be tradable at the end of the initial timelock.

It could still be bypassed if somebody went through the trouble of buying 1 star just to initiate that timelock, and do whatever BS later. But it'd be better than nothing maybe, just a thought.

How about limiting the number of stars that an individual can purchase in a set period. Ideally the period should match paypals chargeback/investigation period.

Obviously this would not solve the issue, but it would reduce the pain.

ya know i think the limited star purchase in a set period sounds good

Set limit on stars? If someone wants to buy 50 stars. Let them.

Agreed, people should be able to make OMGWTFBBQHOLYSHITWHATISTHISIDONTEVEN donations.

From what I have read it seems PayPal is the major method of certain players having bought stars then the transaction falling through. so you "white list" can just involve the somewhat more reliable methods of payment and limit the PayPal transactions with somewhat of a time lick like suggested. players who have proven themselves should be listed on a white list.

new players or those unknown to the community like several that have been seen on the server lately who donate large amounts should have a restriction if even slight. so if its through PayPal then a small time lock on transfers would discourage people from putting through fraud transactions as they would have less time to deal stars..

Players who have proven themselves reliable and trustworthy to carry through transactions should not have any penalty.

Take out the paypal/CC completely and make it so I can direct credit Ender. Problem solved.

I won't be limiting what people can buy.

DNM, it's pretty common for credit card payments to be chargedback/reversed, so that doesn't address the problem. Short of accepting cash only, I don't know there's much I can do.

I think I'll be doing some combination of the whitelist idea, the color-coded warning system, and requiring players receiving permanent stars from another player to explicitly accept them and acnowledge the risk involved. I will also be building an audit log so that these things are easier to track back. I guess the good news for traders is that all of these changes will likely force me to implement self-service permanent star transfers. Stay tuned in July.

Nah I meant like, I have your account number and can just pay you money. I didn't realise that banks aren't on to it enough for people to be able to do that.

Yea, wire transfers can't be undone by either party.

actually they are, my bank has an app that does just that

Are you sure that isn't for reversing automated wire transfers? Like when you've given your mobile phone service provider permission to collect the monthly fees from your account - and you disagree for some reason.

srr forgot to direct my comment properly .. it was for DNM's comment not yours :P

lol, big difference :P

What you guys are talking about. Well, some of you - is what i tried to say earlier; there must be some sort of Way to 'sell' the Star, and be sure it is'nt refundable for the buyer?

Yea, ditch credit card companies. Their 'buyer protection' policies open up all kinds of ways for scammers.

Banks charge more for international transfers though. I'd have to pay at least 6 euro to make a transfer to the USA. So for a $10 star, it'd get expensive :)

I think players and I would rather have the convenience and automation that PayPal offers (with the cost of potentially-reverted transactions) over the fees/manual labor involved with the other solutions. Hopefully with the above-proposed measures, things will be better.

I agree, but you need to do something to protect you, us, and the game.

I guess the good news for traders is that all of these changes will likely force me to implement self-service permanent star transfers. Stay tuned in July.

Bump de bump, bump

Any progress Ender??

This is unfortunately a pretty big project that I've not made progress on, but I still have it in mind.

awww man that's unlucky we all must have been looking forward to that

And yet another alternative would be doing away with the idea of permanent transfer timelock altogether and instead introducing a warning system for traders. I'm envisioning a color-coded system that tags stars based on their age. For example, a star that's less than 30 days old could be red and be flagged to be considered risky to accept in trade, less than 90 days yellow, 90 days or more green.

what happened with this matter Ed? or is it already neglected? for now, I think the quoted above is sufficient.

It's still on my radar, but unfortunately I have a limited amount of time to work on the game. I glanced things over and this still mostly sums up my thoughts:

I think I'll be doing some combination of the whitelist idea, the color-coded warning system, and requiring players receiving permanent stars from another player to explicitly accept them and acnowledge the risk involved. I will also be building an audit log so that these things are easier to track back. I guess the good news for traders is that all of these changes will likely force me to implement self-service permanent star transfers. Stay tuned in July.

I may or may not do the whitelisting though.